starter motor "morning after" puzzle

[BoneStock67]

Here's a puzzle.
My starter motor works fine, ALMOST all the time.
The only time it gives me any problem seems to be the morning after I've driven at least around 100 miles the day before.
Then, almost always, it doesn't turn over at all.
So I just take my special starter motor banging hammer out of the glove box, crawl under, give it a few nice whacks, and then it's up and running again.
I know I should just replace or rebuild the starter (I already have a spare), but I'm just curious about why long distance driving would cause this problem, and especially why it would happen only the morning after. For example, if I try the starter an hour after the 100-mile trip, instead of the following morning, it works fine.
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1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage

"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi

[Wildthings]

Your starter is telling you it is at the end of its service life and needs to be either repaired or replaced. Ignore the warning at your own peril, it may totally fail you at the most inconvenient place and at the most inconvenient time.

[BoneStock67]

Wildthings,
My question was not about whether to repair or replace the starter; I know that I need to do so. I'm just curious about the specific physical cause for the morning after symptom I described.
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1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage

"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi

[dragonfire709]

Mine started doing pretty much the same thing. 95% of the time it would start fine, but occasionally(and generaly after we had been camping and tried to start it in the morning) it just wouldnt start.

I tried to track down the fault for a while and thought i had found it a few times. Im 1/2 Scottish and too tight to replace the satrter if that wasnt the fault!!

I eventually traced it back to the crimp that connected the exciter wire to the starter. gave that a good clean and replaced the crimp to the starter. So far so good!

Roy
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My name is Roy

[BoneStock67]

Wow, that's pretty interesting Dragonfire, and I will definitely give it a try. It doesn't necessarily answer my question, but I too appreciate getting away with not spending money.
In fact, considering how the world's economy is going, I think we are all feeling more and more Scottish by the day.
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1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage

"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi

[0to60in6min]

here's my theory...

Condensation that isolate the brushes (in the starter motor) for clean contact.

- after 1 hour and it starts fine --> engine is still warm, no condensation yet.

- the next morning --> engine is cold, condensation build up overnight and it sort of isolates the brushes (in the starter motor) for clean contact, and the brushes may be near the end too.

other than that I'd say GREMLINS.... ton of them in those old cars/van

[morymob]

84-auto i owned started this & i stopped one morning for Hardee coffee and no start. coasted to back of lot ,removed rear tire,removed starter(batt cable firdt) and found the solenoid plunger gummed up and stuck half way.someone had greased it earlier in its life,cleaned all off,reinstalled and drove for over a year-no problem. sold.

[BoneStock67]

That condensation theory is interesting, but it has one problem: Why does this only occur the morning after a long (100 mile) drive? Could there for some reason be more buildup of water vapor around the electrical connections over a long drive than over a short one?
_________________
1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage

"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi

[Wildthings]

Could be that a longer trip gets the starter hot enough to soften any hard old grease in the soleniod plunger, once it recools after shut down the grease could reharden and cause the solenoid to stick.

[BoneStock67]

Here's some new evidence that supports Wildthings' grease-bound solenoid plunger theory:
This morning the starter again did not turn, so instead of banging on the whole starter, I just banged on the solenoid housing.
It started right up after that.

There's something kind of fun about banging on a vehicle part with a hammer to get the vehicle to start. It makes me feel for a moment like I'm living in an old TV sitcom.
_________________
1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage

"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi

[Wildthings]

[tencentlife]

Ok, ya hale and crusty Scot, take the thing out and tear it down and give it all a thorough cleaning. Put in new motor brushes while you're at at, because a true Scot is as cheap with his labor as he is with his money (I've known many of these tight-ass bastards in my life, so I speak from experience; whereas I'm half-Irish, so we just sit and have a wee drink or two when something breaks, maybe it'll get better on its own).

Pay special attention to the solenoid plunger; clean it thoroughly, and polish the surface with some medium grit sandpaper and scour out the bore with the same. Reassemble dry. Clean the solenoid contactor surfaces, file them flat if they are pitted, and put a light coat of dielectric grease on them. Vaseline will do in a pinch, because dielectric grease would cost actual money, and you know, a Scot and money, they're perfect strangers (as a Scot father of a friend of mine, Finley Mackintosh, told me when he called me in the middle of the night to bail his speed-driving son out of jail once again).

On the motor section, blow out the crud and wear particles, polish the commutator until it's shiny, and put in new carbon brushes. Check the bearings for slop, if they're really bad you might be able to find replacements at a hardware and press them onto the shaft.

Anyway, with a little time and patience, you can do just as good a job as the so-called rebuilding facilities do, for basically nothing. That'll make a Scot proud.

Whew, that deserves a little drink!
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[BoneStock67]

Thanks as always for that good and detailed advice, $.10.
But doesn't this mean I won't be able to bang on the starter anymore? I think I'll miss that ...

And for full disclosure: I'm NOT even a wee bit Scottish, but I am having many Scottish feelings these days.
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1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage

"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi

[tencentlife]

Ooops, my bad; it was the other guy who's Scottish.

You can still bang on the starter all you want, you just don't need to.

Well, anyway, I'm still Irish: bottoms up!
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[tds3pete]

[Sodo]

Tie a weight to a strong nylon cord. (Example: use a 1-3/16" socket from old type1 days.)

Run it around the back of the starter and thru the gap between solenoid and starter, so the weight is hanging down about 5 inches. Then tie the other end off to the left side somewhere near the wheel well where you can reach it.

When it's time to start, hold the switch ON and have your lady stick her hand in the wheelwell hand give the cord a YANK. The socket comes up and hits the solenoid. It starts. Give her time to jump in - it's hard to shut the slider if you accelerate right away.

Pat yourself on the back for being "old school VW".
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
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