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DWC
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: San Jose CA
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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After I stopped laughing I realized they could of had 4 new Routans!
_________________
83.5 Westy Waterboxer
71 Squareback
81 Westy
59 Panel van |
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mightyart
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| DWC wrote: |
| After I stopped laughing I realized they could of had 4 new Routans! |
That's a quad-tan, twice as bad as a bi-tan. |
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Steelhead
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2007
Posts: 1791
Location: Kentfield, CA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ftp2leta wrote: |
| Steelhead wrote: |
| the guy who is liquid $115 right now probably isn't going to get his money's worth out of that van. |
So what???? Just tell me? So what!
Maybe he will, you just don't know that.
Maybe he was born in a VW, became rich and one dream of having one back one day? He as the right to pay whatever he want for it. PERIOD!
You guys sound so funny sometime. Are any of you just plain jealous or what?????
I will stop and won't say what I'm really thinking, i will be ban from here like i was ban form other place's.
If i care.
Ben |
Ben- I said "probably". No reason to get defensive. I was just speculatin'....half this site is simply opinions. If you feel like getting defensive get defensive over the following statement:
Your claim that you are the only person on here that is qualified to judge the value of this vanagon is utterly and completely absurd.
Only free markets determine the actual value of things. Arguably, people whose livelyhoods depend on these markets might be less objective and less qualified. Just sayin'....
_________________
'77 Bay Window / '89 Caratsburg (aka. the Stormtrooper) |
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levi
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 5522
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| mightyart wrote: |
| DWC wrote: |
| After I stopped laughing I realized they could of had 4 new Routans! |
That's a quad-tan, twice as bad as a bi-tan. |
quad-tan, bi-tan, or uni-tan, I vote for no tan.
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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DWC
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: San Jose CA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| DWC wrote: |
| After I stopped laughing I realized they could of had 4 new Routans! |
Then I started laughing again!
_________________
83.5 Westy Waterboxer
71 Squareback
81 Westy
59 Panel van |
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VisPacem
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2007
Posts: 1143
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| ftp2leta wrote: |
Let's see....
First, i think i'm about the only one here who can judge such a price tag.
Best regards, Ben |
Well, Your Honor, Holiness, Light of the Faithful.... it was too cheap !!!
$175,000.00 would have barely started to render homage to the loyal Niebelungen toiling to give us the perfect happiness on wheels.
naa what the H... $200,000.00
_________________
LG aka VisPacemPB, *The* party Pooper
No Regrets (Nothing to do with Vanagons) |
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ftp2leta
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Ben- I said "probably". No reason to get defensive. I was just speculatin'....half this site is simply opinions. If you feel like getting defensive get defensive over the following statement:
Your claim that you are the only person on here that is qualified to judge the value of this vanagon is utterly and completely absurd.
Only free markets determine the actual value of things. Arguably, people whose livelyhoods depend on these markets might be less objective and less qualified. Just sayin'.... |
I'm not defensive at all (and i had to many beers anyway)... i'm just pissed when i read comments that judge a product / work in such a decisive way.
It's not about the market value, who care about this one. If you like to buy a pair of hi end speaker at $100,000 it's your own business. Most will say it's a waist of money. Who are we to judge?
It's still a free country, if someone want to sell a product at 10 time it's value and he sell it.... good for him.
Anyway, that was not the initial subject. People are shocked because they see a van like theirs at 10 time the price. So what?
Your right, i'm not the only one who can judge such a price tag....
You all can.
Let's say that in life, i hate folks who judge something that they don't fully understand.
I also find that GoWesty van are overprice, but that is because i live in a different world. No one here would pay 100k for a fully restored van, they would instead buy a New-West or a Savana camper. ANd i fully agree.
I should move to California. I would not have to fight with rust and dirty oily van all day long. I would work less and make more money.
Anyway, i'm done with this thread.
I'm gonna go save another dirty, oily and rusted van like this one.
http://www.benplace.com/alain87.htm
(that another funny example, many told me at that time that this customer should have found another van instead of saving his.... who i'm i to judge, he bought it new in 89 and he didn't want another one!)
Ben
_________________
Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
------------------------------------------------------
FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/ftp2leta |
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: |
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I normally avoid commenting on these pricing discussions because of their extreme subjectivity. And I agree that the quarterly "Holy Shit GoWesty Pricing" threads should be combined into something like the wheels thread for one-stop dropping (of jaws). But I see the same things being hashed over and over and over, as if some of the posters still haven't gronked markets, even though every aspect of their economic lives is dependent on how they work.
Some simple and by no means comprehensive meta-observations on so-called "free" markets:
Price is not value.
Price is local-market dependent (this is true whether the market is Bay-area California or the NYSE).
No transaction takes place in isolation.
Distortion in a market begins when price is mistaken for value.
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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Steelhead
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2007
Posts: 1791
Location: Kentfield, CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
| Distortion in a market begins when price is mistaken for value. |
Well put. I posted it somewhere else, but I particularly like the recent quote from a wall street banker that in the volatile stock market "everyone knows the price of everything but the value of nothing".
If there was a true market for $115k vanagons, I suspect many of us would quit our day jobs.
_________________
'77 Bay Window / '89 Caratsburg (aka. the Stormtrooper) |
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sc-surfer
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 865
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| If there was a true market for $115k vanagons, I suspect many of us would quit our day jobs. |
He$l ya I'd quit my day job. I could sell 2-3 a year and be happy!!
_________________
'89 Syncro Westy
Catalog of Vans at SDM 2010
Westfalia, Syncro & Tristar Reproduction decals here.
* * * Coming Soon: Washable seat covers for westy bench seat...keep the pets off the upholstery! * * * |
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Lanval
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| ftp2leta wrote: |
Let's say that in life, i hate folks who judge something that they don't fully understand.
Ben |
I'm kind of hoping the irony here is intentional...
I will add to Dime's comment that value is also relative, and most people don't understand value, either ~ at least not holistically.
One problem with value is that the future is unknowable ~ hence the true outcome of any decision is invisible to those making the decisions.
In this particular case, I'll reiterate that the dollars in question are not related to the dollars most of this country; GW is selling to the top of the Vanagon community, and they offer a blanket set of services. People pay for that 'cause it's cheaper than taking the time to learn about their van, and work on it themselves.
There's no intrinsic "price" or "value" here ~ only what someone will pay to meet their requirements.
I don't agree that people are free to do whatever they want with their money; that kind of thinking ignores any sense of social ethics. But I ain't making the laws yet, SO:
1) I deplore the ridiculousness of the price; there are better things to do with the money
2) There is no correlation with the van in question and "price" or "value" both of which are totally subjective
3) My opinion means nothing since there is no regulation on how 1 and 2 are dealt with in this society
But I get to feel the way I feel, and claiming that I or anyone else here are judging things I can't understand is pointlessly aggressive. We're all of us plenty capable of judging what's going on according to each one's ability.
Best,
Lanval |
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aereo-van
Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2008
Posts: 46
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Is it true that you can write off the interest of financing a westy full camper ala an RV if you already own a home? And can't you get RV financing that amortizes this over 20+ years rather than your typical 5 year car loan? if that's the case, than the out of pocket annual cost for $115K is probably not as astronomical as the sticker shock would imply.
_________________
'85 Westy Weekender
Zetec powered Bostig V2.0 |
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vwlovr
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2006
Posts: 1122
Location: on the road
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| tom eaton wrote: |
| Is it true that you can write off the interest of financing a westy full camper ala an RV if you already own a home? And can't you get RV financing that amortizes this over 20+ years rather than your typical 5 year car loan? if that's the case, than the out of pocket annual cost for $115K is probably not as astronomical as the sticker shock would imply. |
having just bought a 55k RV, i would bet that getting someone to finance that would be pretty impossible under an RV loan. RV loans like all other loans have tightened up and the almighty blue book isn't going to list that syncro westy for no 115k (in fact a loaded 90' list for 11k). street value could help you to a point, but i dunno. any underwriter is going to look the 11k blue book and ask why you'd pay 90k more any why they'd give you 100k on a 11k worth of collateral.
i don't get it myself. for that kind of money you could build a totally bitchin off road camper that is totally dialed inside and way more off road capable.
i for one, bought a 37' foot RV with a full kitchen, bath, couch, dinette, bed AND a garage to haul my motorcycles PLUS a honkin cummins motor that can easily haul all that AND my syncro GL. all that for way under 115k (including my syncro and motorcycles). i mean i get it, if i was travelling solo, i'd forgo the beast RV and pimp my GL as a camping rig, but i have no desire to live in a vanagon with my wife, 4yo and 2 70lb dogs.
115k is just nuts for anything, including a 40' class A RV. |
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levi
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 5522
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Lanval wrote: |
| ftp2leta wrote: |
Let's say that in life, i hate folks who judge something that they don't fully understand.
Ben |
I don't agree that people are free to do whatever they want with their money; that kind of thinking ignores any sense of social ethics. But I ain't making the laws yet...
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 Woof!  Are you kiddin me?
It's a good thing you're NOT making the laws governing what I can or can't do with my money. That would not be a +EV move for you. :2gunfire:
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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Lanval
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| levi wrote: |
| Lanval wrote: |
| ftp2leta wrote: |
Let's say that in life, i hate folks who judge something that they don't fully understand.
Ben |
I don't agree that people are free to do whatever they want with their money; that kind of thinking ignores any sense of social ethics. But I ain't making the laws yet...
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Woof! Are you kiddin me?
It's a good thing you're NOT making the laws governing what I can or can't do with my money. That would not be a +EV move for you. :2gunfire: |
Well, I wouldn't be giving your money to millionaire bankers... which is what the guys who currently make the laws governing the use of your money are doing....
In the modern period, a great many people govern what happens with your money, including the use of it for things you probably don't approve of.
And ultimately, I suppose I DO control what you do with your money as part of the electorate.
I'll add finally, that history has a pretty solid record of one thing in particular; when the few rich grow sufficiently ignorant of the value and power of the many poor, the many poor have a way of making it clear (cf. various forms of revolution and social breakdown). In this context, I'm not always optimistic about the US world position ~ pissing on the billions of poor while we suck up a large portion of the world resources ain't the best way to make friends and get along nicely.
I'll finally add, that Levi's post (and this reply) are totally off-topic; if you want to continue hobnobbing about politics, money, etc., let's take it over to the appropriate forum.
~ end ~ |
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ftp2leta
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Laval, the first thing that came to my head is: Your in the wrong country!
There is no irony in my post.... remember, i'm French speaking and there is very limited room for irony in my post.
But in my very modest English i fully understand the meaning of your post (well written if i may say...)and i also fully agree with it...your an optimist and you see things the right way.
Remember one thing, i'm the worker and not the buyer in that crazy world of restoration i'm in.
I went to that business for one reason, because i have learn myself and the hard way every trick there is about Vanagon and Bus's.
But i have customer's who have money... and you know what, they are very nice and humble in general. So at least even if they have money they still have some Westy spirit.
I have learn one thing over the years about Vanagon:
You want to drive one... learn about it my friend, money won't help you in many cases.
I i'm following that thread for one major reason: i learn a lot from it!
I would NEVER own a vanagon if was not a mechanic.... that says a lot.
Ben
| Lanval wrote: |
| ftp2leta wrote: |
Let's say that in life, i hate folks who judge something that they don't fully understand.
Ben |
I'm kind of hoping the irony here is intentional...
I will add to Dime's comment that value is also relative, and most people don't understand value, either ~ at least not holistically.
One problem with value is that the future is unknowable ~ hence the true outcome of any decision is invisible to those making the decisions.
In this particular case, I'll reiterate that the dollars in question are not related to the dollars most of this country; GW is selling to the top of the Vanagon community, and they offer a blanket set of services. People pay for that 'cause it's cheaper than taking the time to learn about their van, and work on it themselves.
There's no intrinsic "price" or "value" here ~ only what someone will pay to meet their requirements.
I don't agree that people are free to do whatever they want with their money; that kind of thinking ignores any sense of social ethics. But I ain't making the laws yet, SO:
1) I deplore the ridiculousness of the price; there are better things to do with the money
2) There is no correlation with the van in question and "price" or "value" both of which are totally subjective
3) My opinion means nothing since there is no regulation on how 1 and 2 are dealt with in this society
But I get to feel the way I feel, and claiming that I or anyone else here are judging things I can't understand is pointlessly aggressive. We're all of us plenty capable of judging what's going on according to each one's ability.
Best,
Lanval |
_________________
Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
------------------------------------------------------
FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/ftp2leta |
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transporterjr
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2008
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: |
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I'm reiterating here, I'm just annoyed that they gave guy 12K for that Syncro! I guess as to 115K for the van, they did a ton of work, have a high labor rate in Cali, and they have buyers to pay for it all.
As to fairness of the price, I find other cases on their website that are more shocking The one I like is a couple buys A Eurovan for 40k+ from them, Drive it 3,036 miles and GoWesty buys it back for 35K. 5K depreciation for 3K miles! GoWesty changes the oil, tints the windows adds a warranty and sells it for 46K! 11K for a warranty and oil change and tint - that's a hell of a profit.
http://www.gowesty.com/sale_details.php?id=1084
But hey, he is stating it all up front and isn't hiding anything from anyone. - but if I were the new buyers and looked at the history after I bought it, I'd be shocked!
I should be as smart as Lukas!
Me, I'll just take my van to Ben and get a ZTEC of Subaru while he's at it!
Ben's labor rate is certainly fair.
John |
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dixoncj
Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2004
Posts: 1083
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| My two cents. When you pay this kind of dosh for a vanagon, you're paying in part, for all the work done. When GW or Ben or the guys I had work on and AW syncro I had built out for Jimmy Buffett - pic of van is floating around on the samba - you're no longer looking at a mass produced vehicle where mass produced pricing applies. You replace every single component on a van - seals, bushings, bearings, all those small niggling components that might break down on you out in death valley - you now have an expensive proposition in labor alone. A westy is both car and house. And one that's been seriously restored/upgraded to better than new condition is simply costly as hell. I could find eight ways to sunday to spend 35k right now on my 86 syncro westy w/o blinking - and it's in pretty good shape as it is. I guess I'm just saying that what GW is selling is closer to a Sportsmobile than a stock westy. Though, you can get financing for 15 yrs on a SMB - also ABS, diesel, new car smell etc. I've driven sportsmobiles and they're awesome. But a Syncro westy - especially one pimped out - is a mighty appealing beast as well. I might not agree w/the way GW prices some of their vehicles, but I'm not their target. Their target is people like JB or others who have the money and want to spend it on a van they're not going to have to second guess for35k or more miles. That, to some, is worth a lot of money. |
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levi
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 5522
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Lanval wrote: |
| levi wrote: |
| Lanval wrote: |
| ftp2leta wrote: |
Let's say that in life, i hate folks who judge something that they don't fully understand.
Ben |
I don't agree that people are free to do whatever they want with their money; that kind of thinking ignores any sense of social ethics. But I ain't making the laws yet...
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Woof! Are you kiddin me?
It's a good thing you're NOT making the laws governing what I can or can't do with my money. That would not be a +EV move for you. :2gunfire: |
In the modern period, a great many people govern what happens with your money, including the use of it for things you probably don't approve of.
And ultimately, I suppose I DO control what you do with your money as part of the electorate.
|
You presume quite a bit.
Not everyone finds it acceptable to live with the normal parameters of this "modern period".
Quite a few choose to live off the grid.
As for me, the short answer is No, neither you nor anyone else govern's over how I spend a dollar.
It's bizarre that you would make a comment like that about me, and then say it's off topic, so the subject is closed......What?
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| roblewis73 wrote: |
Wow.
Sour grapes.
The worth of their money is the worth of THEIR money and whatever they choose to do with it is up to them. You may not do the same if you had their money but such is the beauty of individualism.
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I like that. Well said!
al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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