switched power without key-in warning circuit

[BoneStock67]

My '86 WWW does NOT have the key-in ignition switch warning buzzer circuit that many have recommended as an elegant way to get switched power to a modern amp-sucking stereo unit. At least I'm pretty sure it doesn't: The seatbelt warning cucaracha doesn't come on until I turn the key to the on position, at which point the o2 and alternator lights also come on.
I don't really want to put in a separate dashboard switch (but I will if I have to), so I have questions, like:
Is it likely that there is a key-in circuit, even if the seatbelt warner doesn't use it?
Is there any other way of rigging something similar?

Perhaps this info is somewhere in the Bentley, but I haven't been able to find it. The 85-86 WWW vans seem like a transition setup, especially in the electrical system, so I'm often lost when trying to find info like this. My apologies if I overlooked something obvious.
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1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage

"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi

[erdonline]

Could this be a faulty (although doing most of its job) ignition switch? Or a bad buzzer? I've never seen a Vanagon that wasn't wired this way, though I haven't done an extensive survey. I've changed two ignition switches, one on my own and one on someone else's Vanagon, so if it were me, I'd try an ignition switch if you couldn't track down the wiring any other way. The switched can be had for less than $4 at autohausaz, and can be changed in 20 minutes. If you just want to do a test, I think you should be able to pull off the column cover and put the wiring harness on the new switch without taking the old one out, and then push on the hole in the new switch to simulate the key in the other part (I know this isn't the clearest description, but I hope you get the idea.)

Ed in CT
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'85 Vanagon Westfalia
'84 Vanagon 7-passenger
'98 Mexican air-cooled Beetle

[Wildthings]

Some stereos have a depower function so they can be wired into a full time 12v source. On mine I just have to hold the off button for 3 seconds or so and the units drops to a minimal amp draw. Read your instructions.

[Franklinstower]

I found this site with some information about using your Key In Switch to power your stereo. Not sure if this is helpful to you, but it is a good way to power your stereo with the key inserted.


http://www.weidefamily.net/vanagon/

Look under the Electrical Tab and there is a file for using the Key inserted circuit to power your stereo. Hope this helps and much thanks to Brent for all of his knowlege and his website.
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'89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug

[tencentlife]

Look at the backside of the ignition switch wiring connector plug. There is a small-gauge gray wire with black stripe. This is the "SU" key-in warning trigger wire. Probe the back of the connector and if that wire goes hot when the key is inserted, the switch works as normal, regardless of whether your warning relay is working or is even present.

You can use the SU circuit to either directly power a low-power stereo head, or to trigger a relay to power a higher-power item.

If your stereo is connected to a separate power amp, then the stereo's internal amplifier section is inoperative and it is OK to power the stereo head directly from the SU circuit so long as the power amp is powered independently. If you use the stereo's internal amp, you would be wise to instead use SU to trigger a power relay. This depends on the configuration of the stereo's power inputs. The SU contactor in the ignition switch is very small so it has little power capacity; as a conservative guess I would keep it well under 5A to be safe.
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[BoneStock67]

Well, I did as the wise $.10 suggested and confirmed that the gray/black wire from the ignition switch does indeed come alive with the key in, even though the cucaracha doesn't start until the key is turned.
So now I'm ready to add a relay for stereo "acc" power. I've got a number of unused relay locations on the fuse block (e.g., location #6) that look very much like they are just waiting for me to plug in a relay, but (and here's the stupid question....watch for it, watch for it....) I have no idea how to connect any wires to any of the female relay connectors on the fuse block.
What am I missing?
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1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage

"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi

[tencentlife]

You're missing that all the connections to the panel's built-in relay sockets are internal. You don't wanna go there. It might be possible to backtrack all the pins on a vacant socket and patch into those circuits elsewhere, but it would take some study, and I rather doubt there is a solution there; I would have to look. How good are you with the wiring diagrams?

You can get relay sockets that have a little dovetail projection that will slide into one of the dovetails atop the panel. That's about as close as you're likely to get for emulating stock mounting. I never searched for them so no idea where to get them, but they are available and I'm sure someone will chime in to say where.

Otherwise it's locate the relay somewhere out of the way and run your own wires to it.
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[crazyvwvanman]

Relay socket 6 would be a logical choice of the empty sockets available. The problem is that it uses a special 4 pin connector on the back and I have no idea how you would find the plug to match it. Page 97.80 of the Bentley shows relay socket 6 and the 4 leads from it going to pins L1-L4 on the back of the panel. Page 97.68 shows the back of the relay panel and in the upper left has the L block and it's 4 pins labeled, 2 smaller outer pins and 2 larger inner pins for high current.

You would need the special 4 pin connector and 2 of each size pin to fit it. Then you would need to know how to hook that up to do what you want it to.

Mark

[BoneStock67]

Thanks again, Ten, and thanks to you Mr. Crazy.
So to keep it maximally stock it looks like I need either a dovetail relay socket or a special four-pin connector, neither of which I have.
Ah well. Something else to search for.
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1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage

"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi

[crazyvwvanman]

The relay socket should be simple to find. I get used ones from various VWs at the junkyard. They slide and lock into the top edge of the relay panels. With a small flat screwdriver tip or such you can release the locking tabs and slide it back out. The same relay sockets are sold by various vendors in their headlight relay kits so you could get a kit and only use one relay of the pair or inquire to see if they will sell you what you need. Terry Kay has that stuff and sells here all the time. Some of the used ones I get also have a fuse mounted to the socket.

Mark


quote="BoneStock67"]Thanks again, Ten, and thanks to you Mr. Crazy.
So to keep it maximally stock it looks like I need either a dovetail relay socket or a special four-pin connector, neither of which I have.
Ah well. Something else to search for.[/quote]

[16CVs]

Go to 12v.com . They will show how to build a retained power supply with three relay's and a diode. It works great and the building instuctions are straight forward.
I've got two of them in use.

Stacy

[BoneStock67]

Hey, waddya know; the relay sockets (aka "relay plates", part #161937501b) are NNLA (NOT no longer available) and so I ordered three from my local VW dealer parts counter. At $11 each, certainly more expensive than from the junkyard, but at least I can feel like I'm doing my share to help keep our parts on the NNLA list.
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1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage

"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi

[BoneStock67]

I thought I'd update this thread, because today I finally got around to dealing with the key-in-ignition switching of the radio, and it could not have been easier. After obsessing for a while about the best way to do a relay circuit, I realized that I don't play music very loud, nor do I have any kind of mega-amp that might tempt me to do so, so I just connected the radio's accessory wire directly to the grey/black SU key-in warning wire, using one of those in-line tap-splice connector doohickeys, and voila it all works perfectly. Yippee!
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1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage

"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi

[hiram6]

The switched 12v wire on most after-market stereos doesn't really pull any current, it just "senses" 12v. The other power wire from your stereo (the one that goes to "constant 12V") is the one that really supplies current to your deck. Usually it will be a heavier gauge wire, as appropriate.

Vampire tapping into the key-in circuit is no problem. I've had mine done that way for almost a year.
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1985 Westy, 1.9L automatic (Daisy)
1996 Mazda Miata
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited

You can't lie around on the beach and drink rum all day.................unless you start first thing in the morning.

[BoneStock67]

Thanks, Hiram; that's even better, and makes sense. The constant 12V wire on my stereo is, as you suggest, a heavier gauge. Now I know why.
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1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage

"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi

[Volksbulli]

[BoneStock67]

My Panasonic (I don't remember the model number, but it's like DogPilot's, only without the fancy screen) has the same feature; i.e., hold the button for three seconds and it goes into a low-power mode. But low power is not no power, and at least for my unit, this low-power mode would definitely drain the battery significantly after about a week, hence my desire to wire in the key-in circuit to the accessory input.
_________________
1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage

"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi

[tencentlife]

Even if it's no-power, you still have to remember to turn it off. For me that was the whole point of using the key-in as a trigger. I've left the thing with the radio on too many times, and the hold-the-button-for-three-seconds shutoff on a lot of newer head units, like mine, is damn inconvenient if you ask me. Often passengers want to talk and have no idea how to shut off the stereo so they turn the volume way down and you drive awhile and forget it's on, and then park the car. Next day the battery is flat. If you have a remote power amp switched on by the head unit the problem is about eight times worse; the amp will kill the battery in a fraction of the time.
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[Volksbulli]

[quote="tencentlife"Often passengers want to talk and have no idea how to shut off the stereo so they turn the volume way down and you drive awhile and forget it's on, and then park the car. [/quote]

I drive solo mostly so that's a non-issue, and I don't mind turning it off manually. I must be a real German cause I never listen to the radio half the time. Always listening to engine and for noises, in facts I went on an hour and half trip on the highway Sunday and never realized the radio wasn't on til the last 30 mins of the drive. Or could be attributed to the fact that the first car that I ever owned and drive today some 11 yrs later is a 67 beetle, spent all my driving time listening to the engine in that too. LOL Force of habit all these years.
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It's a Volkswagen Thing, Even I Don't Understand!(o\|/o)
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82' A/C Westfalia
67' Typ 1
96' Golf GL

[targis58]

I ve been using my stereo on SU circuit fine but there have been situations that I wanted to turn on the radio without the key. What is the best way to solve this? Is it OK to place a toggle switch between constant power and switched power lines and let the switched power line get power from constant power line by turning the toggle switch on? does that mean my SU circuit is also ON without the key in?
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90 westy 2wd w/ TBD