10mm or 12mm flywheel seal for manual? (attn: tencentlife)

[sanchius]

I just replaced my flywheel seal & o-ring (87 syncro manual) and upon reassembly, it still leaked.
I didn't do the best job of seating it, so it may be my fault. I'll be ordering another today.
It may also be one of the oil gallery plugs, I'll be sealing those as well.

I'm checking everything and one discrepancy I found is that while our experienced wbx builder, tencentlife. says the correct flywheel seal is 12mm deep (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=286798&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=65),
bostonbob, another respected wbx builder, states strongly that the 12mm is for the automatic and the 10mm must be used for the manual trans
(at 16:25 in his video http://www.bostig.com/files/bostonbob&bostig-proper_wbxflywheel_install.wmv).

Gowesty's flywheel seal writeup (http://vanagonusedparts.com/library_article.php?id=535) shows a thicker flywheel seal and the one I received from them was 12mm

So, which should it be, 10mm or 12mm?

[MarkWard]

According to ETKA the seal number is 029 105 245. They specify the same part number for both the flywheel and flexplate. I would say you need to look at the sealing surface on your flywheel. Over time a groove will form and not help the seal to seal. Going with a different thickness seal might help to relocate the sealing surface. Sorry ETKA does not give the dimensions.
_________________
☮️

[85_Westy]

My experience has been ... it's a crapshoot as to whether you'll get a 10mm or a 12mm seal when you order as the part number is the same.

That said, you want a 10mm for a manual transmission and the seal should be countersunk ... not left flush. Leaving it flush will cause the flywheel to rub and destroy the seal.

I usually stay away from dealers, but, their crankshaft seal has a larger spring and is a better seal than the aftermarket types.

The 12mm works fine with an automatic.

Mike
'85 GL Westy (2.1) std
'84 GL 7 pass automatic
'84 Westy std
'84 Westy std (parts)

[tencentlife]

Right, only one P/N here. The hubs of the driveplate and flywheel are dimensionally identical. I watched that video of the estimable Mr. Donalds awhile back and I can't recall him specifying any difference, but if he did I would have to respectfully disagree.

The OEM seal is the one with 12mm shell depth, and you should use that one or at the least another like it with 12mm if you can. You've probably seen it already but on this page I describe a few brands and their differences:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...p;start=40

rsxr is dead-on, when a mainseal is changed and still leaks it's usually due to a groove worn in the FW hub sealing area. Repositioning the seal to a new running surface is an option, by using a diferent depth seal, but I prefer instead to recondition the hub by abrading the groove away and then polishing the surface. It's time-consuming, but worthwhile when the alternative is a new FW or driveplate. Firstly, if you can drag and catch your fingernail in the groove, it's too far gone and you'd best look for a replacement. If it's lighter than that the FW can be rigged up on a spinning jig of some kind, and abraded with progressively finer grades of emery cloth, beginning with 40 or 80 and stepping gradually up to at least 1200 grit. Use lots of WD40 as a lubricant and cleaner on the abrasive papers. Final clean with a generous dousing of WD and a clean soft rag, and polish with a buffer and jeweler's rouge or a Skotchbrite pad. Clean, clean, clean. Lightly oil the seal lip and the entire hub sealing area right before final assembly.
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[85_Westy]

I should have been more clear in my post and said, If using "Aftermarket" seals, use the 10mm for standard transmissions.

The OEM seal is indeed 12mm but has a larger spring and a slightly different profile than the 12mm aftermarket ones and, therefore, works better.

Mike

[ftp2leta]

[Volksbulli]

Would the difference between the 10 and 12 mm seals allow the sealing lip of the seal to ride in a different area? I know sometimes a seal lip wears a minor groove into the sealing surface after many many miles. The different depth would let the seal lip to rid in a fresh area.

If anyone has any experience with with Domestic V-8 Engines when replacing the front crank seal you pull the Harmonic Balancer off , replace the seal, there is a thing called a sleeve n' seal which it a very thin metal sleeve that slips over the the sealing surface of the balancer, secured with loctite, allowing a fresh surface to ride on.

I don't think such a sleeve is made for WBX flywheel or flexplates.
_________________
It's a Volkswagen Thing, Even I Don't Understand!(o\|/o)
-------------------------------------------------------
82' A/C Westfalia
67' Typ 1
96' Golf GL

[tencentlife]

I asked my machinist about turning down the flywheel and fitting a sleeve; he judged that impractical vs. just getting a new FW. I've had great results with the sanding/polishing procedure I described; takes about an hour to do one. If the groove is too deep to do it, though, another FW or driveplate is the most productive path, either new or a better used one that you can successfully clean up.

Using a different seal depth to cause the lip to ride on a different area sounds good in theory, but I think results in practice are very spotty at best. I wouldn't count on that approach to produce a dry engine, it will mainly make you an expert at removing trannies.

Ben is right that you also have to look very carefully for other sources of leakage. Many engines that weep oil down their fronts have perfect FW sealing, but seep from the front main galley plug, or even one of the small plugs, although those leak rarely. Even the cam endplug can be the source. Once the oil sprays around in there it's very difficult to ascertain which is which, but hopefully you can study the traces and come to a conclusion. Pulling the galley plug and tapping for a threaded replacement is doable in the car, with care. If you can make out radial oil staining from the rear-side hub of the FW, then it's the mainseal for sure, but most times the oil has sprayed around so much that that kind of telltale has been overwhelmed by the oily miasma. It helps to hold the FW up in bright light and look at it from a low angle; the oiled areas will throw a glare and you can sometimes make out where the oil is emanating from.

If the FW hub o-ring is the leak source, you will have an oily clutch disc, possibly with dripping from the bellhousing if it is pretty severe, but definitely with telltale traces of oily spray radiating from the inner-side hub of the FW. That is the one that's easy to be sure about once you have it apart.
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[sanchius]

[ftp2leta]

[sanchius]

After setting the endplay, JBwelding the oil plugs with a 24hr setup time, installing the new FW main seal and putting it all back together, it still leaked badly within seconds...

So, I pulled it all back apart again. The new FW seal looked fine and the JBwelded plugs are all still sealed.

After comparing the leaked oil with engine & trans oil samples, the leak is coming from the engine.

What I'm thinking is:
- o-ring not sealing (should be OK since it's new from GoWesty)
- case halves leaking at the interface
- excessive crank case pressure (it's feeling alot like this: http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0601A&L=vanagon&D=0&P=22813 )

So, I'll take the flywheel & o-ring to one of the local shops to check out,
put a bead of jbweld along the case seam,
replace the soft breather hose,
and do it again.

Can you think of anything else I'm missing?


(This job is making me a huge fan of those blue HarborFreight nitrile gloves.)

[Vanagon Nut]

so I too had to wonder about Boston Bob's comment in the Boston Bob/Bostig video.

Have the "royal we" decided that a 12 mm thick oil seal is the one to use on the manual transmission WBX ?

And, if one smooths out a minor groove at FW hub, wouldn't that make it harder for the ID of seal to seal to FW? Or, since that seal ID is flexible, does it still butt up against the FW hub even after removal of material? i.e. if the minor groove was left as-is, it would damage the ID of seal sooner? (there is always some crank end play)

Does the ID of seal constantly rub against the FW hub? It seems to me it would. I find it amazing that it doesn't wear out asap.

Thanks,

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[Pascal]

I finally dropped the transaxle to see why I was loosing oil. This 12 mm Sabo seal was installed about 7 years ago in a fresh rebuild and was leaking from the start. the flywheel was a GoWesty rebuilt one.

The seal was seated all the way in and looked good when I removed it. I have a spare flexplate for an automatic and I measures the flange that the seal rides on and it is a bit larger in diameter than my spare flywheel flange. I'm going to measure up the other flywheels that I have to see if they are similarly smaller diameter than the automatic flexplate. I also measure the ID of the new 12mm Sabo and 10mm Victor Reinz seals that I have and the Victor Reinz has a slightly smaller ID as best as I can measure it with my caliper. I'm going to order an Elring seal to compare, but I wonder if I'm just measuring acceptable tolerance variations.

Boston Bob had lots of experience with all kinds of VW boxer engines. I did not see any damage to the 12 mm Sabo seal like he said would happen, but I wonder if all the flexplated engines he took apart had the 12mm seals and all the flywheel engines had 10mm seals from the factory.

I'm waiting for my Rancho rebuilt tranny to come back before I can see if the new 10mm seal will do. I'm not going to use my spare Sabo because the first one did not work for me.

Pascal
_________________
'84 Westy - 2.2wbx, GT Torque-Biasing Differential
'91 EA Cabby

[DanHoug]

wipe a rag around the sealing surface of the FW and post another picture... the critical lip interface part is covered with oil.

aaaand, you used a new flywheel o-ring before, right? was the case split 7 years ago? case sealant in the oil drainback passage?

if there is even the slightest imperfection in the FW seal surface, i'd put a Speedi Sleeve on it. tightens up the seal bore a skooch too.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[Pascal]

The sealing surface looks really good, no grove at all. Yes a new "O" ring. I fished a zip tie down the oil return passage no problem so they are not blocked. I used Curil K2 to seal the case up so i did not think that would be an issue. The flywheel is with spec. The Sabo seal is 1 mm larger in diameter than the 2 Vistor Reinz 10mm seal that I have. I have a new Crankcase vent and hose so the crankcase pressure should be good, unless the vent is bad, but I am getting a bit of oil out of it in my oil catch can, which tells me it is working. I can only thin that the Sabo seal was just not sealing tight enough.

_________________
'84 Westy - 2.2wbx, GT Torque-Biasing Differential
'91 EA Cabby

[DanHoug]