1960 Ghia - engine choices. Long ramble.

[DesmoDog]

Short verison -

I've got a 1960 Ghia and the stock 36hp engine isnt going to cut it. I want 60hp or more.

I've already upgraded the brakes.

I already have a 356 engine to use as a core.

I'm not against using a later VW engine, anything from a 1600 single port to a 1776.

I'm also not against building a hot rod 36hp engine.

Cost needs to be considered, but is not the defining issue

I'd like it to have heat exchangers and do not want to cut the car to make it fit.

Era correct is cool but not critical

Comments?

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The LONG verison -

I'm confused. I've got a 1960 Ghia that I've been slowly (painfully slowly) putting back on the street since inheriting it about ten years ago. It's still running it's stock size "36hp" engine and that's just not going to cut it for me.

My original plans were to build an era correct, hot rod Ghia. Along those lines I bought some Okrasa heads. When I began collecting other parts I came across a 1958 1600N Porsche 356 engine. I ended up buying that and selling the Okrasa heads.

While I was tearing down the engine I discovered some nastiness - a cracked case. Add this to the less desirable third piece (small oil pump) and my solution was to buy a later case with the larger pump. At this point affordable pistons/cylinder sets weren't available and the engine project got shelved while my lust for certain Italian motorcycles overtook every spare dollar. Well, not every spare dollar. I did set it up with dual circuit brakes, a new front beam, and some 356A drums up front.

Flash forward to present day. The Ghia now sports new wheels and tires too, and is more or less driveable. But too damn slow.

And now my dilemna. What engine to go with? The more I read up on this the more issues I find putting the 356 engine into the car. None of them are insurmountable of course, and I've already invested in the core engine itself... but the whole period correct thing isn't as important to me anymore. I just want something to drive.

So maybe ditch the Porsche parts and put a 1776 in it? But it seems even that presents issues - new style engines into smaller old style engine openings?

How about a 1600 single port instead? I'd be happy with 60-70 hp. My original goal was 70-75 but that was entirely arbitrary - I think that's what a stock 1600N put out?

However... it's been a long time since I've checked on 36hp mods. I sold my "Making the VW Go" and "Souping the VW" books long ago and kind of gave up on a 36hp based engine, but am I giving up too soon?


So what's out there in 36hp land these days? Is a 60hp mill without resorting to Okrasa or Judson parts doable? Back in the day I played with the numbers to build a stroked 36hp with a Porsche crank and some trick pistons to avoid using spacers. Can the stock heads be made to work with something like this or would I be wasting my time? Dual carbs of course. Again a 60hp goal...

One thing complicating this is I want to run heat exchangers. Apparently that's one of the catches for going with a Porsche engine, or even a later VW engine? This shouldn't be a huge deal - I have a fully equipped exhaust protytope shop in the building I work in so I'm not all that worried about modifying things... I designed OEM exhaust systems for about 15 years and basically if I can draw it, I can get it built.

So the more experienced out there - what should I build to stuff into my '60 Ghia Cabriolet?
_________________
-Craig
Team YIKES! Motorsports

[volksworker]

Since your car is a cabrio I would keep the 36 and hot rod it based on the vastly increased value of the car vs. a disguised 1600 . Without heads getting 60 hp out of a 36hp would be very difficult and require at least larger intake valves , a cam and a lot of compression. Even stroked to 1500cc, if you cant get air in you cant get power out. My conversion with stock heads makes 46hp. Dual carbs, a little porting, a cam , some more compression and an extractor exhaust[vintage] with dual smitty mufflers [glasspacks]. I can get 90 mph out of the car and its freeway cruising speed and overall performance is vastly improved but its still frustrating if you are seeking sporty fun performance driving. It does make my lowlight perform on par with period sports cars of the time like my MGA or a Sprite, Midget, TC, TF etc etc.......all of which any 20 year old would think are very slow cars. On the other hand even a 1600 single port would make the car quick enough to enjoy as a sporty driver.........if you already bought aftermarket wheels you should just drop in any 1600 based motor you want........there really arent any fitment problems.........its a little tighter but they do fit. I too was going the Porsche route[in fact Im looking at the complete 1600 normal motor] but I decided to do my own 36hp motor using Porsche components in my lowlight......and its worked out well...but I dont think its as fast as you seem to want................

_________________
Tom
67 Porsche 912 Bahama Yellow
68 Crew Cab Transporter
73 Thing original
57 MGA 1500 Coupe
71 K20 Suburban 3dr

[DesmoDog]

Thanks for the info, that is food for thought. Good to hear larger VW engines fit alright.

I'm not looking to make it a sporty car. My main goal is simply to not get run over by soccer moms in their Expeditions... I had a couple experiences last summer where pulling out into traffic was just a little more nerve wracking than I liked. My HP numbers/desires were arbitrary... based on nothing other than wild guesses on what it'd take to not feel so vulnerable in traffic. 90mph is more than fast enough. I've got a few other toys at home if I want to go fast. In fact top speed isn't an issue with this thing, it's the 0 -60 by appointment aspect of things that I want to change.

Your engine looks great by the way. I'm pretty sure I have a spare carb stashed around here somewhere. And an oil filter off the Porsche...

All that said, I'm kind of leaning toward putting the stock engine/transaxle on the shelf and putting a single port 1600 in there.

Are you running the stock transaxle, or a later model?
_________________
-Craig
Team YIKES! Motorsports

[volksworker]

Well remember 90 mph is what I have got it up to on level ground all out.....maybe a little more. It cruises nicely at 75 or 80 however. It still doesnt have much torque but it definitely feels like a vintage sports car now and not a total slug...............good luck
_________________
Tom
67 Porsche 912 Bahama Yellow
68 Crew Cab Transporter
73 Thing original
57 MGA 1500 Coupe
71 K20 Suburban 3dr

[1960bus]

Tom,

Do you run your lowlight on bias plys with that setup? My 36hp is being rebuilt at the moment and I intended to go down the duel carb route. I currently run a 6v 40hp in my lowlight with Firestone F560 radials I find the car is quite quick and handles pretty well but i have thought about wide whites but I don't know if that means I'm not going to enjoy driving it anymore.

Thanks,

Dan

[8URN]

This thread might be of some interest to you:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=318552&highlight=

[1960bus]

Thanks. I tried for 3 years to persuade my vw mechanic to sell me his 1958 356 engine. In the end his son asked for it to put in his oval, so I lost out. Having fitted this to his engine to his own beetle before he certainly knew what was involved so I was prepared for a bit of work. One thing he told me though was that despite working on and owning vw's starting with an oval since the early 60's he'd never driven one of his own carson bias (cross) plys so he couldn't tell me what it would handle like.


Dan