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dogcoves
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2005
Posts: 266
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:53 pm Post subject: 2.5 subaru in California |
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I have heard that its hard to register a Vanagon with a 2.5 engine in California. My two friends with repair shops in the Bay Area can't see why they couldn't smog it. How do you get around the rules? Is it so difficult with the CA DMV that its not worth the trouble? Anybody with insight in to this area please let me know. It seems to me that a modern 2.5 Subaru would produce less smog than a Waterboxer.
_________________
Current VW: 1987 Westfalia
My Past Volkswagens:
1958 karmann ghia
1963 Beetle
1963 Westfalia
1966 Westfalia
1970 Beetle
1970 Westfalia |
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ChesterKV
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2005
Posts: 1725
Location: El Cerrito, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: 2.5 subaru in California |
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| dogcoves wrote: |
| I have heard that its hard to register a Vanagon with a 2.5 engine in California. My two friends with repair shops in the Bay Area can't see why they couldn't smog it. How do you get around the rules? Is it so difficult with the CA DMV that its not worth the trouble? Anybody with insight in to this area please let me know. It seems to me that a modern 2.5 Subaru would produce less smog than a Waterboxer. |
It's a big can of worms. Logic has nothing to do with it. Different people will tell you different things. Different state referees will tell you different things. It's a gamble.
It sucks,
Chester
_________________
1984 Wolfsburg 7-passenger stock sunroof
1992 Subaru Legacy EJ22 boxer motor installed.... van is now sold.... currently playing with a 1987 Toyota MR2 with 1.6 liter twin-cam motor. Better than the Subaru boxers....... I'm impressed. Well, okay, in an "apples and oranges" kind of way.  |
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madspaniard
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 3795
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I know two people in the Bay Area with Subaru SVX engines, they both swapped the exhaust systems for the referee inspection. Buslab in Berkeley knows how to do it. |
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dogcoves
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2005
Posts: 266
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| madspaniard wrote: |
| I know two people in the Bay Area with Subaru SVX engines, they both swapped the exhaust systems for the referee inspection. Buslab in Berkeley knows how to do it. |
I believe the one of the guys at the Buslab has a SVX
_________________
Current VW: 1987 Westfalia
My Past Volkswagens:
1958 karmann ghia
1963 Beetle
1963 Westfalia
1966 Westfalia
1970 Beetle
1970 Westfalia |
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vwsyncroguy
Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2004
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: 2.5 subaru in California |
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| dogcoves wrote: |
...........Is it so difficult with the CA DMV that its not worth the trouble? Anybody with insight in to this area please let me know. |
The DMV has nothing to do with it...
The BAR, Bureau of Automotive Repair, and the CARB, California Air Resourses Bureau are in charge here....and it is not in their interest to keep older vehicles on the roads of CA...in fact, they will pay cash in order to remove them...i.e. the source and motivation of all the adds from charities to donate your old car.
A long and lengthy discussion here on the Samba, one which will neither influence the buraucracies or gain the desired result, is futile....
The OBD-I diagnositics system for the 90-94 engines which KEP received an EO for, is much simpler than the OBD-II systems used after 1996. The number of emmission control systems which are monitored in the OBD-II system, and must be made to work in a Vanagon just as they did in the original Subaru, makes it much more difficult to convince the lords of the bureaucracies.
| dogcoves wrote: |
It seems to me that a modern 2.5 Subaru would produce less smog than a Waterboxer. |
Very logical...and in a logical world, true.....but logic does not apply when political forces are at work.
Bottom line....yes it is likely more trouble and the risk of failure significant enough...that it's not adviseable.
Warren C.
Moderator
SubaruVanagon Yahoo Group
Last edited by vwsyncroguy on Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:34 am; edited 2 times in total |
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madspaniard
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 3795
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| dogcoves wrote: |
| madspaniard wrote: |
| I know two people in the Bay Area with Subaru SVX engines, they both swapped the exhaust systems for the referee inspection. Buslab in Berkeley knows how to do it. |
I believe the one of the guys at the Buslab has a SVX |
that would be a third guy I know, Marco from Buslab |
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vwsyncroguy
Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2004
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:40 am Post subject: |
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The SVX's you are discussing are all OBD-I engines...and an approval of any OBD-I engine bears is no indication of likely success in trying to get an OBD-II engine approved.
Warren C. |
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McVanagon
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2007
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern part of the Virginia
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Terran
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2004
Posts: 326
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:44 am Post subject: |
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that's basically the thing that keeps me from moving out there!
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VW For Life
'74 Super; Pertronix igniter, Euro Exhaust, J-Pipes, CB Performance front disk conversion.
Next buy: A Westy of some year! |
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: Re: 2.5 subaru in California |
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| dogcoves wrote: |
| I have heard that its hard to register a Vanagon with a 2.5 engine in California. My two friends with repair shops in the Bay Area can't see why they couldn't smog it. How do you get around the rules? Is it so difficult with the CA DMV that its not worth the trouble? Anybody with insight in to this area please let me know. It seems to me that a modern 2.5 Subaru would produce less smog than a Waterboxer. |
Its not about getting around the rules.
The new engine has to have all the smog compenents in place that it had in the donor car. It ain't rocket science.
Cut corners and you'll likely get nixed.
And for the typical referee/inspector they will just want to check off the list.
If you are going down this road, put on your "patience hat". Keep in mind that these guys are people, too. And some of them ar downright friendly if you give them the chance.
No one likes to have to deal with "new" problems every day of every week.
If you get the wrong guy on the wrong day.. maybe no nookie last night.. it might be more difficult.
But if you go in with a piss poor attitude about "bureaucracy" and "gummint is bad" then people will feed off it and make your life much more difficult.
There are several smogged 2.5s and 3.3s in California.. I would imagine that if you have the where-with-all, skill and patience to do the machanical part of the swap.. Then you should have the patiennce to navigate the paperwork and inspection.
Thats why you see the SVX/Vanagon going in with an abomination of an exhaust system that gets swapped for something more practical after passing.
I am looking into this, as well..
Frankly.. when people start bitching about the rules, it makes me want to prove them wrong.
(and if smog laws keep a few people from moving to California.. good.
The pollution problem here is a direct function of number of people.
We've cleaned emissions considerably since the 60s.. but our population has doubled. Do the math.) |
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Terran
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2004
Posts: 326
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:44 am Post subject: Re: 2.5 subaru in California |
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| j_dirge wrote: |
(and if smog laws keep a few people from moving to California.. good.
The pollution problem here is a direct function of number of people.
We've cleaned emissions considerably since the 60s.. but our population has doubled. Do the math.) |
I do agree that California needed the emissions rules, really every state should have them. However you also stated that the rules themselves are something of a bureaucratic mess. So what's the point if you just swap you smog exhaust off right afterwords anyways.
It's not the smog laws that keep me from moving there, it's the way they're enforced.
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VW For Life
'74 Super; Pertronix igniter, Euro Exhaust, J-Pipes, CB Performance front disk conversion.
Next buy: A Westy of some year! |
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pushkick
Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2007
Posts: 1366
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: frankly |
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Frankly.. when people start bitching about the rules, it makes me want to prove them wrong.
(and if smog laws keep a few people from moving to California.. good.
The pollution problem here is a direct function of number of people.
We've cleaned emissions considerably since the 60s.. but our population has doubled. Do the math. |
i may be straying a little from this thread.
i would guess that smog vs smog laws would be more effective in keeping people out of the LA basin. in the dog days of summer i use to be able to see only 6 telephone poles through the brouwn air in L.A.
yes to some extent you are correct but the realty is not so easy to put the blame on just more population. the industry that produces 75 percent of the U.S. produce is a big part of the problem as well as the shipping and trucking and california's need for more money (greed) has helped fuel the problem. i can remember up until around 1985 in newport beach they use to let a 6" natural gas well pipe burn 24/7 to the atmosphere. finally they capped it. the AQMD (air quality management district) has plenty of data on this subject. they are the ones that monitor through remote sites the whole LA basin. |
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vwsyncroguy
Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2004
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:52 am Post subject: Re: 2.5 subaru in California |
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| j_dirge wrote: |
Its not about getting around the rules.
The new engine has to have all the smog compenents in place that it had in the donor car. It ain't rocket science. |
Not rocket science but...as you said, every OBD-II sensor that can throw a MIL code has to work in the Vanagon well enough so that you get no codes.
For 1996-2005 engines, other than the ones associated with the engine itself, that involves:
2 AC condenser fans - easy enough
2 Gas Tank Level Sensors
Gas Tank Pressure Lensor
Gas Tank Temperature Sensor
Gas Tank Purge COntrol Valve
Perhaps you can modify, or custom design a Vanagon gas tank to incorporate all these. Stephan White of Stephan's Autohouse in Sacramento, a very capable shop who has performed some OBD-II conversions, decided it was more trouble than most customers would be willing to pay for. Bu if you're a DIY fabricator/tinkerer with a lot of time you might decideotherwise.
Just remember.....no codes can come up when you go the referee.
......but, as you said, "It's not about getting around the rules", not that a circuit board well get you around them anyway. The inspectors have seen enough Suby conversions by now that if you come in with one that's an OBD-II engine, they're going to want to see how you solved these sensors.
Smallcar makes a small circuit board that you can wire into the ECU to simulate the signals that will eliminate the codes (most of them anyway) ....and a circuit board won't make them too happy.....it doesn't help emmissions, just fools the computer to keep it from throwing a code.
Then we come to the CAN-bus systems, appearing in some models as early as 2006....which monitor almost every function in the vehicle........"FUGGIT ABOUT IT"...
| j_dirge wrote: |
....and if smog laws keep a few people from moving to California.. good. !!
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Ditto
This is what I call a "Flapper" thread......
....a bunch of us flap our jaws...signifying and changing..... nothing.
Warren C |
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vwsyncroguy
Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2004
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:12 am Post subject: Re: 2.5 subaru in California |
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[quote="j_dirge]
Thats why you see the SVX/Vanagon going in with an abomination of an exhaust system that gets swapped for something more practical after passing.
I am looking into this, as well..
[/quote]
Can't seem to get this thru...here...
The SVX's that have been approved with the temporarily stock exhaust are OBD-I cars.
An OBD-II SVX will be no less difficult to solve than an OBD-II 2.2L,, a WRX 2.0, all 2.5s, or a 3.O ....etc. etc.
WC |
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:12 am Post subject: Re: 2.5 subaru in California |
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| Terran wrote: |
I do agree that California needed the emissions rules, really every state should have them. However you also stated that the rules themselves are something of a bureaucratic mess. So what's the point if you just swap you smog exhaust off right afterwords anyways.
It's not the smog laws that keep me from moving there, it's the way they're enforced. |
Because (from what I understand) the ref wants to see all of the donor exhaust and fuel system in place.. The more the better.. which might lead to some less than preferred clearance issues and some cosmeticly grotesque work underside.
But custom headers can move some of the stuff up and out of the way for better driving and maintenance.
So why not take the SVX in with custom headers for inspection, you ask?
Because the custom headers may be a red flag to the ref...
Either way the catalytic convertor, the sensors are still there and the smog work is still getting done with the custom pipes.. Just as it was designed to do in the SVX... the custom job just moves them to a better place.
I'd like to see some exhaust systems that have passed inspection.. and if anyone would care to post some pics.. It would be of great help any of us who want to wander down this tortured road.
As far as how smog is enforced? Considering we have 35 million people and it will be 50 before long.. The Vanagon SVX and Vanagon 2.5 crowd is just an itty-bitty fraction of the whole.
The smog laws work exceedingly well for the big picture and if one doesn't get his proverbial panties in a bunch, they can work for us in the itty-bitty fractions, too.
In 25 yrs I have not had a vehicle fail emissions. I know some have.. And I recognize that many cars need to be taken off the road. It seems a fair enough balance to me..
And seriously.. if you're gonna let this one small issue stop you from moving here.. I could give you another 1000 WORSE issues to seal the deal.
We've got our problems out here, but its still a damn great place to live.
Don't like it? (not saying this to you in particular, Terran... but to any non-resident who wants to point, mock and whine..) Then by all means. Stay away. California has enough whining already.
Generally speaking this state is forging beyond the status quo on many environmental issues.. and we are succeeding (albeit slowly.. and sometimes in painfully small steps) on many fronts.
But our pain in getting there saves the other 49 states a great deal of headaches when it comes time to deal with THIER messes. |
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: Re: 2.5 subaru in California |
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| vwsyncroguy wrote: |
The SVX's that have been approved with the temporarily stock exhaust are OBD-I cars.
An OBD-II SVX will be no less difficult to solve than an OBD-II 2.2L,, a WRX 2.0, all 2.5s, or a 3.O ....etc. etc.
WC |
I am hearing you.
Do you have the SVX OBD-1 in your van? |
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vwsyncroguy
Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2004
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:26 am Post subject: Re: 2.5 subaru in California |
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| j_dirge wrote: |
| vwsyncroguy wrote: |
The SVX's that have been approved with the temporarily stock exhaust are OBD-I cars.
An OBD-II SVX will be no less difficult to solve than an OBD-II 2.2L,, a WRX 2.0, all 2.5s, or a 3.O ....etc. etc.
WC |
I am hearing you.
Do you have the SVX OBD-1 in your van? |
No.....I have a 2.5L ...but I already had a BAR/CARB approval and bar code sticker from a previous 2.2L.
I'm "getting around the rules" by assuming most of the smog-only shop techs won't notice the difference. So far, over four years, and 2 smog inspections, I'm 1 for 2. Most recently, the kid knew his Subarus.
Warren C |
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izzydog
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2005
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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The reality of getting a Subie conversion legal, at least here in the Bay Area, is that each referee is slightly different but almost none of them will OK a 2.5 engine.
I asked the referee, straight up, when I did my 2.2 conversion what he would approve and he said OBD1 engines and NOTHING else. I asked specifically about the 2.5 and he said NO.
Your two friends with repair shops no doubt have your best interest in mind, but if they have never personally been through the process then I would not take their advice and take your chances. |
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