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Yellow Van Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2008 Posts: 163 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: Go Westy says use Premium Fuel. Do you agree? |
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I would think 87 fuel is no problem with these vans. Opinions?
From Go Westy:
"VW Buses and Vanagons, by contrast, were designed in the '60s and '70s and DO NOT HAVE knock sensing capability. That is, if you decide to put low grade fuel in it, the engine has no way of adapting to it. The little engine will try to push that big box around with all its might, knocking or not, until it pukes. And unlike the newer Eurovans—with their larger, more sturdy engines—the engine in a Bus or Vanagon is BARELY able to push it down the road. Anyone who has spent any time behind the wheel of one of these vehicles, even one fitted with the largest engine GoWesty offers, the 2.5 liter, finds themselves trying to push the accelerator pedal through the floor just to keep up with traffic. It is a good idea to always run premium fuel in any Bus or Vanagon, period. You ask, “But what about the cost?” Well, at $5 per gallon, what is another twenty cents? A lot less than another engine, that’s for sure.
What about running hotter? Doesn’t my engine run at a HIGHER temperature with HIGHER octane gasoline? Baloney! Don’t believe it! It is just not true. Always run premium in any Bus or Vanagon, or you will risk destroying the engine." |
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Mr. Electric Wizard Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2003 Posts: 2846 Location: Smyrna, TN
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Admittedly my van ran better with 91 octane than with the 87 I've put in a few times. _________________ "Saying what we think gives us a wider conversational range than saying what we know."
~ Cullen Hightower
(T)exas (C)oalition (B)uses
(H)eidenhammer (B)ully (B)oyz
--1966 De Luxe Camper |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Lucas Logic, I would say. |
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Dogpilot Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2005 Posts: 4205 Location: Flagstaff, AZ
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Well it makes sense with the higher compression engines. Engines do not run cooler with premium fuel. The combustion runs slower. Higher octane was a prevention against detonation, or explosive combustion. Higher octane retard this speed. Cooler, no, but you can overheat components this way, except they usually fail from the explosive effect.
During WWII the brits where able to nearly double the power outputted from the Merlin engine via the use of the Yank's new high octane fuel. This allowed boosting and higher compressions on the same engine. Made the Merlin powered aircraft run circles around the German lead sleds, especially at altitude. This little advance made the ME109 a very streamlined coffin for many Germans.
Octane really has nothing to do with cooling. The high octane is needed in the GoWesty larger displacement engines which have higher compression. _________________ Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G |
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pjrae Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2008 Posts: 155 Location: Joshua Tree
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Has anyone ever frankensensored (not talking about the smelly stuff) a subaru or other knock sensor to an visual gauge/meter/??? and strapped it to a wasserboxer and checked for pinging? What are the odds that would work? Would it have to be tuned specifically for the motor or are they more generic? |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Go Westy says use Premium Fuel. Do you agree? |
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Utter hogwash. GoWesty has strong motivation to distort the truth since THEIR engines need higher octane. That is the basis of the performance increase they get, higher compression ratio in their higher performance engines. Since this makes them need higher cost fuel they try to justify it by falsely claiming all Vanagon engines should use the higher cost fuel anyway. VW does not say this and thousands of long term Vanagon owners know differently as well.
I have owned VW vans for 30+ years and put 100,000 miles or more on many of them, with 87 octane.
Mark
Yellow Van wrote: |
I would think 87 fuel is no problem with these vans. Opinions?
From Go Westy:
"VW Buses and Vanagons, by contrast, were designed in the '60s and '70s and DO NOT HAVE knock sensing capability. That is, if you decide to put low grade fuel in it, the engine has no way of adapting to it. The little engine will try to push that big box around with all its might, knocking or not, until it pukes. ............It is a good idea to always run premium fuel in any Bus or Vanagon, period. You ask, “But what about the cost?” Well, at $5 per gallon, what is another twenty cents? A lot less than another engine, that’s for sure..............Always run premium in any Bus or Vanagon, or you will risk destroying the engine." |
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jackbombay Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2007 Posts: 2723 Location: Eastern Idaho
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pjrae Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2008 Posts: 155 Location: Joshua Tree
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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oh duh- forgot about the aftermarket turbo crowd....
well then I'd say spend $50 for a KS unit if you're concerned and it'll pay for itself in approx 13 tanks of regular gas, but if you ARE seeing it flash then you can post here and enlighten the masses and hush the GW naysayers (at least momentarily) |
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woggs1 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2007 Posts: 531 Location: South Pacifica California
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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I always use the 87 on principle and have NEVER had any problems in both my vans. The few times I used the high octane stuff I could notice not difference. F*&*k the oil companies I say. _________________ 4 speed 88 Westy |
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devesvws Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2004 Posts: 1540 Location: madison va
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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I have run many differents fuels in the same high compression DJ waterboxer and the more refined race fuels show a considerable increase in power.
Last edited by insyncro on Tue May 19, 2009 7:25 am; edited 2 times in total |
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agreendaya Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2006 Posts: 1307 Location: Winthrop, MA USA
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't noticed a difference. Tried it a few times to see if it helped mileage, as I had heard it did, but it didn't in any way I could detect. I've got a snazzy little app on my centro that keeps track of my mileage for me, and the high octane doesn't seem to change anything. _________________ '74 Bug - Gone
'69 Westy - Gone
'74 Westy - Gone
'78 Transporter - Gone
'69 Baja - Gone
'91 Vanagon Carat - Gone
‘71 Bus - Gone
Current: ‘74 Westy 2.0L, hydraulic valves, dual EMPI 34s |
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jackbombay Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2007 Posts: 2723 Location: Eastern Idaho
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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agreendaya wrote: |
the high octane doesn't seem to change anything. |
In a low compression motor without a knock sensing ignition system high octane gas won't change anything.
With a knock sensing ignition system you will get a bit more power/economy because the computer will advance your timing with high octane fuel compared to low octane fuel.
Higher octane = greater resistance to burning.
If the flame front in the combustion chamber exceeds the speed of sound you end up with an explosion (detonation, AKA "pinging") instead of a rapid burn. If you could see inside the combustion chamber detonation would be a yellow flame while a rapid burn would be blue like a gas stove... _________________
Gas struts to pop your top easily!
Pop Top strut kits now available for late Bay window Westies
Samba ad here.
DIY artificial rain gutters (ARGs) |
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Dogpilot Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2005 Posts: 4205 Location: Flagstaff, AZ
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Jack,
Interesting you point out the color. There used to be a gizmo called a Colortune or some such name. It was a special clear spark plug that allowed you to adjust the mixture according to combustion color, never used one but thought the concept was interesting.
A while back a discussion went on about adapting a Digfant which incorporated the knock sensor. Somebody had read that the WBX head design didn't adapt well to the knock sensors. It was available concurrent with the WBX Digifant rollout but in the I4 engines. Since the WBX's ignition map's code is a deep secret it was deemed a difficult adaptation. _________________ Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G |
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jackbombay Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2007 Posts: 2723 Location: Eastern Idaho
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Dogpilot wrote: |
Jack,
Interesting you point out the color. There used to be a gizmo called a Colortune or some such name. It was a special clear spark plug that allowed you to adjust the mixture according to combustion color, never used one but thought the concept was interesting.
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I remember those, but though they were kind of useless as with a normal car you can't look at the "colortune" while at WOT, although you can in a vangon with somebody else to drive but not with the stock engine, you'd need to have done a I4 swap of some kind.
If I had a bunch of money into a rebuilt gas engine that I wanted max power and economy out of I'd get a J&S safeguard ignition system, Jake Raby uses them, not cheap, but they do adjust the ignition timing for each cylinder individually so one hot cylinder won't retard the timing for the lot of them. And if you do develop a hot cylinder you'll be able to see it on the dash gauge for the J&S which shows hwere the timing i for each cylinder. _________________
Gas struts to pop your top easily!
Pop Top strut kits now available for late Bay window Westies
Samba ad here.
DIY artificial rain gutters (ARGs)
Last edited by jackbombay on Tue May 19, 2009 6:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TheBlueTurtle Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2007 Posts: 353
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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im not too keen on this tech mumbo jumbo.
however. i'm a very conscious and sensitive driver.
their is most defiantly an engine performance increase with higher octane fuel used.
i drive an 85 1.9, its low powered enough as it is.. the last thing i need is shit gas to make it worse.
91 Chevron, best stuff on earth.
87 Valero, worst.
everything else is everything else. _________________ 84 Westfalia (Goldie)
GoWesty 2.2 |
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SSWesty Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2008 Posts: 732 Location: Bellevue
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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Has anyone experienced better MPG by running premium? I just put in a tank of premium this weekend so I don't have a data point yet.
Steve |
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ftp2leta Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2004 Posts: 3271 Location: Montreal
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 4:52 am Post subject: |
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jackbombay wrote: |
agreendaya wrote: |
the high octane doesn't seem to change anything. |
In a low compression motor without a knock sensing ignition system high octane gas won't change anything.
With a knock sensing ignition system you will get a bit more power/economy because the computer will advance your timing with high octane fuel compared to low octane fuel.
Higher octane = greater resistance to burning.
If the flame front in the combustion chamber exceeds the speed of sound you end up with an explosion (detonation, AKA "pinging") instead of a rapid burn. If you could see inside the combustion chamber detonation would be a yellow flame while a rapid burn would be blue like a gas stove... |
Well said! _________________ Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
------------------------------------------------------
FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/ftp2leta |
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Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 7:05 am Post subject: |
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jackbombay wrote: |
Dogpilot wrote: |
Jack,
Interesting you point out the color. There used to be a gizmo called a Colortune or some such name. It was a special clear spark plug that allowed you to adjust the mixture according to combustion color, never used one but thought the concept was interesting.
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I remember those, but though they were kind of useless as with a normal car you can't look at the "colortune" while at WOT, although you can in a vangon with somebody else to drive but not with the stock engine, you'd need to have done a I4 swap of some kind.
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I've got one, bought it at a garage sale years ago. Exactly as described. Blue when idling within range. But like he says, how do you use it under load?
Chassis dyno, that's how. Kinda pricey toy, though.
FWIW, I have ALWAYS found 87 octane gives better gas mileage that 90 octane gasohol. Or any other enhanced octane fuels. But I've only driven them 2 or 300,000 miles, so, "Your Mileage May Vary!".
I've even gone to using the 87 stuff in my 3.0 liter 911. I haven't managed to kill it in 6 years, but still trying. I'm a slow learner.
Al _________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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devesvws Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2004 Posts: 1540 Location: madison va
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