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jdbs3 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2004 Posts: 96
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:07 am Post subject: Dino Oil - Yet Again |
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1990 Vanagon GL, ~114,000 miles
To date I have been using Castrol GTX 20w50. The van is only used in the summer. Over the next month I expect to put ~4K miles on the van.
However, I've recently read a number of threads regarding the newer oils and the reduced zync problems. But there seems to be mixed messages in what I read.
As recent as this year, I see recommendations for Castrol GTX 20w50, and other threads that don't recommend it. I've also seen some pros/cons on Valvoline racing oil.
So it is unclear how important the zync issue is, whether it is compensated for in the newer oils by additives, etc.
Without getting into the pros/cons of the zync additive, can someone provide a list of the top 5 brands of dino oil I should now use given the most current information on zync reductions in oil, etc.
I have no plans to move to synthetic. I plan to stay with dino 20w50. Just would like to know what brands are best now.
thanks |
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Mr. Electric Wizard Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2003 Posts: 2846 Location: Smyrna, TN
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:31 am Post subject: |
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I just bought a case of 20w50 Brad Penn partial synthetic.
It comes highly recommended here and other places.
It's ~$4 a quart. _________________ "Saying what we think gives us a wider conversational range than saying what we know."
~ Cullen Hightower
(T)exas (C)oalition (B)uses
(H)eidenhammer (B)ully (B)oyz
--1966 De Luxe Camper |
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Perales Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2007 Posts: 2046 Location: Nova Scotia
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Do a SEARCH for "ZDDP" _________________ -- 1987 Westfalia automatic (Captain Vino) |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50255
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
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An SM rated oil with a 20W rating MAY have moderate zinc. An oil with a GF-4 rating will not. |
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Perales Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2007 Posts: 2046 Location: Nova Scotia
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Just to get you started:
The level of zinc typically recommended for a flat tappet engine such as the Vanagon 2.1 WBX is in the neighborhood of 0.13 weight%
a typical modern motor oil such as Castrol GTX 20W-50 currently has 0.09 wight% zinc. This lower level may cause premature wear and failure. The reduction in zinc and phosphorous levels in oil was ordered in an effort to extend the life of the catalytic converter in cars that were burning oil. Modern engines use a roller tappet design in order to compensate for the friction increase caused by the Zn and P reduction. It can be easily brought up to spec with the careful use of an additive. - added cost, about $3.50 per oil change.
Anyway, do a SEARCH on this stuff. It has been well covered in previous posts. _________________ -- 1987 Westfalia automatic (Captain Vino)
Last edited by Perales on Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:24 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Dogpilot Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2005 Posts: 4205 Location: Flagstaff, AZ
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Here is the thing about oil. It is kind of like drinking 8 glasses of water a day will make you live longer. Well to really test that theory you need a pair of twins and let one have the 8 glasses and the other the bare minimum to sustain life. Let them both go until death.
You almost need to do this with oil. Really the only thing disturbing is the removal of zinc, but without some long term testing it is hard to tell. Most modern oils work really well, especially if you change them every 3,500 miles. Longevity of the WBX is most defiantly not controlled by poor lubrication and wear and tear. The best oils in the world will not help the rod bolts or the head seals. So use a decent oil of the correct specs and change if regularly. Removing the blow by residues and controlling the pH of the oil is more important with re-formulated fuels. _________________ Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G |
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erdonline Samba Member
Joined: September 26, 2004 Posts: 943 Location: CT
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:15 am Post subject: older oil |
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I think that many of the chain auto parts stores' brand of oils might be the older formulation- rated as SL, I believe, and not GF-4. Some of them even say "for cars made before 19XX" (I can't recall the exact year.)
I got my last batch of 20w-50 from AutoZone with this label.
Ed in CT _________________ '85 Vanagon Westfalia
'84 Vanagon 7-passenger
'98 Mexican air-cooled Beetle |
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jdbs3 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2004 Posts: 96
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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I was trying to avoid the ZDDP discussion yet another time. I've already read everything I could find on it. I was just looking for the brands folks are now recommending given all of these discussions.
RE: (Dogpilot) So use a decent oil of the correct specs and change if regularly.
Given your comment, I think I'll not be concerned with the ZDDP/zinc discussion. Rather continue to use dino 20w50 such as Castrol, Valvoline, etc. I change my oil every 3k miles. |
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MinamiKotaro Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2008 Posts: 1039 Location: Somewhere in TN
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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jdbs3 wrote: |
I think I'll not be concerned with the ZDDP/zinc discussion |
You might want to concern yourself with ZDDP/zinc. I started using SM rated oil (low zinc) and my cam and lifters failed completely within a couple of months. It looked as if someone had attacked the lobes and lifters with a grinder. I know the cam was good shortly before that because we had the case open.
I found some SG rated oil (high zinc) and have had no problems since. _________________ 1967 VW Beetle
2276cc
MegaSquirt-extra v3.57
Check out my ongoing story. |
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Dogpilot Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2005 Posts: 4205 Location: Flagstaff, AZ
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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You can get zinc additives if your worried. We can and have gone in circles over oils, additives and such. I think everybody needs to decide on a personal basis and religious belief. All I can say is my experience is looking at the 50 60 aircraft engines we tear down a year. There is little difference in the wear from magic $10 a quart oil and the regular old Aeroshell 100 mineral oil we buy in 55 gallon barrels. We change it every 50 hours. The big difference is our engines, flat fours and sixes on aircraft, is they run at 75% of their rated power for 80% of their life and 100% of their rated power for 15%, the rest is idle. Most auto engines run at less than 20% of their rated power for 75% of their life and idle for 24% with less than 1% at 100% power.
Almost all of the problems we see on engines nowdays is caused by new fuel formulations. The walk away from lead coupled with the additives that boost the octane ratings are NOT good for valves, valve guides or your oil. We see so many swallowed valve seats it is not funny. Many of the additives, mainly toluene make fuels run hotter, but slow the combustion. Unfortunately, this burn temp is very close to the temp that you heat a head to insert the valve seat. So they just tend to drop out and rattle around your engine. LEad could be dispersed with modern oils, however the new replacements do not disperse well and make or oil acidic.
Change it, change it, change it.
All kinds of folks will have problems, but I do not think that just the oil was the cause. My religious oil beliefs are different. Read this, covers Slick 50 (real Snake Oil and zinc):
http://www.skepdic.com/slick50.html _________________ Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G |
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regis101 Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2005 Posts: 2078 Location: Livermore, Ca
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Clogged CATs at 50k were one of the problems with the proper amount of Zn and Ph. Go figure. The Feds mandate a 120k life span. Boron is the latest additive.
If I had to choose an off the shelf oil, it'd be a high mileage formula.
Or remove the CAT and run some good stuff. _________________ Peace, Regis |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50255
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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regis101 wrote: |
Clogged CATs at 50k were one of the problems with the proper amount of Zn and Ph. |
Have you seen and can you post studies that show this? Most engines with only 50K haven't burned two quarts of oil, the amount of Zn and Ph that builds up in the converter must be nil. |
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