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ranzuo Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2009 Posts: 84 Location: Nashvegas, Tennessee
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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:15 pm Post subject: Ball Joints FAQ |
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[url=https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=361910&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=]Ball Joints FAQ[/url] |
One of the items on my list of starting projects is gonna be the ball joints because I can see their worn out. However when I look on the Busdepot at ball joints there are two, regular and oversize. Does anyone know which my bus has?? It is a 79 regular Bay
Thanks |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51149 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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All depends on how many times they have been changed. A 1 owner bus with full service history and no swaps would probably be OK with standard size, but if they have been pushed out a few times and the hole is oversized you'll need the big ones. Until they are out you can't say for sure. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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buy swap torsion arms with the new ball joints already pressed in. Trust me. Bus Boys, Wolfgang, German Supply - you just need to find a price and quality you are comfortable with or perhaps close to you so you can inspect them before swapping. Unless you have the special tools to press them back in you won't be happy trying to put in your own. I tried to get a local VW bus shop here in Sacramento to redo mine but the last set they did broke a 40 ton press. I think it was probably worn but if you search you will find that they can be a bear to deal with even with the proper tools and press. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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wvengineer Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2006 Posts: 168 Location: Petersburg, West Virginia
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:43 am Post subject: |
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I'm in the process of rebuilding my front end right now as well. I'm hoping to continue dismantling it this evening. I decided to do it the hard way and replace the ball joints. _________________ My Resto Thread
1977 Champagne Edition I Bus (Soon to be repainted Sage Green with a Camper Special in it!) |
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atmellovw Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2006 Posts: 1652 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Buying the torsion arms with the joints pressed is the way to go. Saves you trips to a machine shop and worrying about if they are going to be able to press new ones in. Check out my gallery, I took alot of pics with notes this past winter when I did mine. Just don't forget to reinstall your eccentric bushing. _________________ 1972 Westy ("Bubbles") - Pastel White - 1700(1974 MT) - Dual Solex |
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Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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I've replaced several sets using a ball joint press I bought back in the 70's. I think it was made by Moog.
This made the job so simple. I'm sure I did a whole car in 4 hours or less. I'll probably do the ones on the Dormie sometime soon. I'll try to document it.
I think you can rent some kind of a ball joint press from Autozone and similar places.
Al _________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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ranzuo Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2009 Posts: 84 Location: Nashvegas, Tennessee
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:18 am Post subject: |
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im gonna jus go with new arms that have new joints in them. its not too much more and its worth saving the hassle. all 4 are blown and with my schedule it would take a long time to do them. ill just get the arms and do them in my garage.
thanks for the replies |
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Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:26 am Post subject: |
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Personally, I think changing the arms is a good amount of work, too.
Let us know how it goes.
Al _________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Desertbusman Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005 Posts: 14655 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:21 am Post subject: |
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69doublecab wrote: |
I think you can rent some kind of a ball joint press from Autozone and similar places.
Al |
And then rent a truck and forklift to get it home. Seems like a 20 ton and VW tooling is pretty much needed. Sometimes we hear stories about how it stresses a 40 ton press. The local VW shops in the area that have the equipment to do them charge around $125 or so to do the R and R of the 4 bus joints. It is one job that they don't like to do. _________________ 71 Superbug
71 Westy |
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Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:38 am Post subject: |
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Desertbusman wrote: |
69doublecab wrote: |
I think you can rent some kind of a ball joint press from Autozone and similar places.
Al |
And then rent a truck and forklift to get it home. Seems like a 20 ton and VW tooling is pretty much needed. Sometimes we hear stories about how it stresses a 40 ton press. The local VW shops in the area that have the equipment to do them charge around $125 or so to do the R and R of the 4 bus joints. It is one job that they don't like to do. |
Well, I've got the press and the tooling (I think. I have a lot of VW factory tools) I would not even bother using them though. I did several cars with my little Moog press. It was about 20 years ago, can't remember all the details now. It seems like the biggest problem was that one eccentric stuck to the old ball joint.
Al _________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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gt1953 Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002 Posts: 13848 Location: White Mountains Arizona
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Talk to bus boys and the swap ball joints it is easier for you and the head ache is less. _________________ Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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wvengineer Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2006 Posts: 168 Location: Petersburg, West Virginia
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:13 am Post subject: |
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As previously stated I ordered ball joints from Scott to do it myself. I have a 15T press, and a friend of mine has a 50T. I don't have VW 459 for removing and installing the joints. Looking at the arms I could possibly fab the tools needed to do the job. The other option would be removing them with heat and a hammer then using the correct sizes Sch. 80 pipe to install them trying to make sure you get them indexed correctly. I've thought about this long and hard. My final decision was to go ahead and order the arms from Scott and have him cancel the ball joints. There is no way I can practically justify the labor doing it myself for one bus considering the difference in cost. I hate it because I would rather do it myself, but you have to pick your battles. I think you've made the right choice. _________________ My Resto Thread
1977 Champagne Edition I Bus (Soon to be repainted Sage Green with a Camper Special in it!) |
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lostsailr Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2004 Posts: 126 Location: Burnt Hills, NY
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:26 am Post subject: |
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I'm at the same point and just got refurbished parts from out west (where beams last a whole lot longer). Now that we are getting ready to put them on, anyone have a good link to info on replacing both sides at the same time? Most discussions talk about doing one side and then the other, but as you see, we are starting from scratch here...
_________________ The Bus came by and I got on, that's where it all began! |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
My final decision was to go ahead and order the arms from Scott and have him cancel the ball joints. |
- wise decision.
It is a pretty straight forward repair. You will want to follow Bentley. I pulled the torsion leaves to be sure they werem't broken and then used an old spatula super glued to a stick of wood to get the old grease out of the tubes and to inspect the bearings. Getting the arms off just go slow and take pictures as you go. Follow Bentley. Use a long crowbar to release the torsion arms that are sitting on the stops. I lift the arm with the crowbar and then pull the bumpber stop out with long pliers so that I don't lose fingers if the crowbar slips. Then with it resting on metal and the less tension I use either a lead / brass hammer or a piece of oak and a small sledge to drive out the arms. Going back together is similar except you have to lift the arm a little with a jack and prybar. Do not hit them with a steel hammer. Use only a brass, lead or piece of hardwood to absorb the blows.
Those shots of arms look really nice. Where did you get them? They look like they are a 9 or 10 on a scale of 10 whereas the ones we got from Wolfgang were a 8 on a scale of 10 due to pitting and prior wear. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Zed Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2005 Posts: 281 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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FYI Bus Boys is out of rebuilt torsion arms for the next 10 days or so. People haven't been returning the cores, so he's upping the deposit on that.
I am also dealing with my ball joints, trying to get my bus completely done for a camping trip on the 1st. Since bus boys is out of rebuilt torsion arms for the moment I am considering just having Painters Grinding in Denver take care of the machining.
One question I have, Does anyone have 1st hand knowledge of the quality of Nakata ball joints? Painters says they are of equal quality to German ones for 1/2 the price. |
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Joey Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2005 Posts: 5366 Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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I've used this method:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZLxPyRdAbY
On the bus ball joint, use a grinder to grind the top cover off the ball joint.
I used a tool similar to this to press the new ball joints in:
_________________ Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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nakata is fine. Why not get a set from Scott at German Supply? I got mine at wolfgang. They were Ok but I had to clean and polish the races.
fyi - cherry red changes the temper of the arm and makes it more prone to bending under a hard jolt. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Joey Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2005 Posts: 5366 Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:14 am Post subject: |
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SGKent wrote: |
fyi - cherry red changes the temper of the arm and makes it more prone to bending under a hard jolt. |
who said anything about heating them up till they're cherry red? _________________ Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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Bart Dunn Samba Consiglieri
Joined: May 09, 2004 Posts: 2354 Location: Sea level (Mid Atlantic)
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:23 am Post subject: |
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SGKent wrote: |
nakata is fine. Why not get a set from Scott at German Supply? I got mine at wolfgang. They were Ok but I had to clean and polish the races. |
I started a thread several years ago about German vs. other ball joints. Search ball joints under my name--was a good thread with input from Ron at Bus Depot, etc.
Overall, I say go German. For a mission-critical part like a ball joint, I wouldn't skimp. Door seals & whatnot, who cares. I found German ball joints (Febi) at JustKampers in the UK. I ordered "German" ball joints from OEVeeDub that turned out to have been Brazilian, so carefully source the parts. _________________ Not enough car seats fit into my:
'58 Beetle convertible
'58 Beetle sedan |
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Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:36 am Post subject: |
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56ovalbug wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
fyi - cherry red changes the temper of the arm and makes it more prone to bending under a hard jolt. |
who said anything about heating them up till they're cherry red? |
Heating to cherry red might not be good. Lower temps would be less chance of changing the temper. I learned a little about heat treating and metallurgy in school a long time ago. I'd say that quenching in water is a no-no, too.
(like is shown on the Youtube video.)
These arms are alloy steel. Probably heat treated. Some of the strongest steel in the car, along with the crankshaft, rods, tranny parts, front and rear spindles and axle shafts and cv joints.
Al _________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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