advice on undercoating

[BillJohnson]

I'm currently having my bus restored. The guys doing the work would like to use a "sound deadener" on the inside floors and doors. I believe it is POR-15 that they are using. They are also proposing I do the underside of the bus, first pressure washing, allowing a thorough dry. Any feedback anyone can give me on using this stuff on the underbody? Much appreciated.
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1979 Type 2 w/ Weber 40 IDF carbs
2003 Jetta TDI

[SGKent]

our 1977 has a thick coating of wax (Cosmoline) on the bottom. Embedded in that is dirt from so many miles. Pressure washing did not remove it and I would be hesitant to paint anything over it including POR-15 for the reason that it is soft enough still to allow cracking of the paint and that could allow water to be drawn in through capillary action. If they want to pressure wash and wire brush where there is not cosmoline left to knock off any scale that has built up and apply POR-15 on that, it would work well. Por 15 does not require complete removal of the rust but don't think pressure washing is going to knock everything off - I base this on the experience of pressure washing our bus with my large gasoline powered unit. It is stong enough to strip the surface off concrete but the dirt remains under the bus in places I couldn't get a good angle on. The only way that a pressure washer will work is if you can get the bus high enough to stand under it, see what you are doing and really get close to a 90 degree angle on it when you wash.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[BillJohnson]

Merlin,

I was misinformed. These guys are proposing lizzard skin, not POR-15. Do you know anything about this product?

Thanks for posting.
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1979 Type 2 w/ Weber 40 IDF carbs
2003 Jetta TDI

[SGKent]

nothing at all other than what comes up with Google. I don't know if I would go to all that expense for sound deadening. It needs a dry clean surface to adhere properly. POR-15 is a protectant against rust. Lizardskin was designed as a sound deadener. As a VW bus owner you need protection against rust. With so many windows you are going to get sound inside whether you insulate the floor or not. The best sound deadening I've had is simply to stuff some thick foam pieces under the rear seat area.

From their site:

Surface should be dry and free of foreign matter.

Should be primed prior to application of
LizardSkin Ceramic Insulation.

Surface should be clean and
free of any oil, dirt or other foreign matter.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Bart Dunn]

To me, a restorer wanting to put undercoating on your car sounds like trouble. It can cover a multitude of sins for a long time, long enough for most statutes of limitation to run. Make sure you get some nice pic's of the undersides before they put any goo on it.
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Not enough car seats fit into my:
'58 Beetle convertible
'58 Beetle sedan

[peaceful warrior]

The sound deadening is a good idea on the interior, but there are many products out there.....so I would do some research. There should be a thread somewhere in this forum about a bus that got all free sound deadening materials to give feedback.

As for me, If the undercarriage is bare metal, I would definitely use Por-15, though I found Rust Bullet to be a better product. Admittedly, when I restore a VW, I usually have the undercarriage blasted, whether with sand or media so that I can find the hidden problems.
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"Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein
"Notchboy" says "Man up!"
"Tram" says " My bus is bigger than your bus."
66 13W Deluxe, 68 Westfalia, 87 Syncro.
TOOB Member #15
Brian

[aliennetwork]

Here is an almost complete write up of Lizard Skin
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...mp;start=0

and the YouTube Vid that goes with it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uVV_zM-4b0
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M-Plate

[BillJohnson]

Thanks to all who have posted. I'm sold, at this point, on doing the lizard skin on the inside of the bus. These guys are beyond thorough and are very unlikely to cut corners, so I believe them when they tell me that they will do the necessary prep w/ pressure washer, etc. before spraying.

I guess I'm less convinced that using this material on the underbody is necessary. I'm not as interested in the sound deadening aspect (although it will be nice) as the aspect of protecting the underbody from more rust, etc.
If the prep is done properly, is it worth the extra $900 it will cost me to have the underbody done?

This is not a show car; it's a daily drive/work van and I'm looking at it from the point of view of practicality, not aesthetics.

How many of you guys have had this done to your cars/buses?
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1979 Type 2 w/ Weber 40 IDF carbs
2003 Jetta TDI

[Rubber Duck]

[Jeff Geisen]

My advise is, since you asked, save your money. Our beloved buses were not blessed at the factory with immersion painting. All the places on and within the body that could not be sprayed are bare metal, probably more un painted than painted. As the poster stated above, coatings cover a multitude of sin, and I would rather keep an eye on the bottom of my bus than seal and cover the inevitable rust that is there now working as it is on most any VW.

All our buses are rusting as we read this, and you just have to be proactive and deal with it as you go along, or cover it up and ignore it.
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I Corinthians 4: 1 thru 5

‘63 ragtop - ‘68 single cab

[Randy in Maine]

I agree. POR-15 or KBS Coating the bottom of the bus after good surface prep.

Since your there, it would be money well spent. Make sure the body drain holes are indeed open and actually drain.

I am not sure if Lizard Skin or Second Skin will actually stick to it though and I would probably use that kind of stuff on the inside of the bus and in the doors.

[Jalabert]

After I finished the chassis work on my bus, it got the following: Epoxy-based stonechip, traditional underseal then something like waxoyl sprayed into the cavities. I'm not sure that I would, for a resto job wherre it's not possible to get the shell into anything other than a low-bake oven, trust to the hardness of paint alone for adequate chip protection.

Yes, the underseal makes working underneath less than pleasant for the first few months after it's applied. Yes, not to everyone's taste aesthetically. There are an awful lot of places underneath a bus that you can't adequately cover with paint, and I figured that between spraying different species of gloop I'd get them adequately protected for the next twenty years.

My experience of POR-15 hasn't been as overwhelmingly positive as most other peoples, and it's probably down to my surface prep. (This was a couple or three years before I did the full resto) I did the metal ready thing and prepped it as well as I could on my back on the driveway, pressure washer, wire brush, metal ready. I'm not sure whether it was because of the Hammerite the PO had used at some point, but when I came to restoring it fully the POR-15 was coming away - very much like milk skin. But in the places where it did stick...v.good. I just mention it so that you know that if you do go down this path it really isn't as unforgiving as some might have you believe, in my experience - it's real prep dependant.

[busdaddy]

[BillJohnson]

I have to admit, I like Jeff Geisen's take on this issue, although that really great picture from busdaddy seems to refute the immersion painting opinion that he holds. I do think he has a valid point about not being able to know what's going on once it's covered up.

I think if I did coat the undercarriage, I wouldn't go with a sound deadener product (I have yet to hear from anyone using this on the undercarriage), but maybe something a bit more robust like POR-15. Of course, as a paint contractor who has been in the business for 35 years, proper prepping is critical. You can have the greatest paint money can buy and watch it fail without taking the time to prep it properly.
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1979 Type 2 w/ Weber 40 IDF carbs
2003 Jetta TDI

[Marv [UK]]

coating the underside with just one product is like painting your walls with gloss paint as well as your skirting boards and doors. You need different things for different areas

Clean it with a grinder and knotted wheel then rust bullet or POR 15 it.

For the bits you can't get to, waxoyl or equivalent to fill all the gaps like in the sills (or rockers as you call em, can't see why, they don't rock ) and the top hat sections and stuff.

then you liberally coat all the other bits you can see with underbody seal and stonechip

the point is that underbody seal doesn't cover sins if you know what your underbody is like. it flakes off when it gets rusty underneath and it has nothing to cling to.

surface rust is fine, it can be covered and forgotten about. flaky orrible biscuit rust is what you need to find and deal with. With work, your bus could last another 30 years, without it, once they start to go they go FAST!

[BillJohnson]

Marv,

I missed your post. Thanks for the product recommendations. Funny, some years ago, I went to this old guy who ran a body shop. He didn't want to tackle the rust on my bus, but he did give me a short tutorial on rust preventative products. After decades in the trenches, he thought that Waxoyl was the best rust preventative.
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1979 Type 2 w/ Weber 40 IDF carbs
2003 Jetta TDI

[SGKent]

Cosmoline is close is it not to Waxoyl?
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Oil Phil-M]

Curious, what was the original colour of the underbelly of our buses? I'm goint to be undertaking a metal repair project in the future. Currently faced with a thick ashphalt based undercoating everywhere that I'll need to scrape off first.

[busdaddy]

Grey with body color overspray on the frame rails and body color in the wheel wells.
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