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73kombi
Banned
Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 1215
Location: ~The London Bridge, AZ~
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 Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Funny side note...this morning I go out to start Bessie...NADA (nothing)
So I assume it's my cheap azz relay fix. I check out everything, still nothing...get a jump start, she fires right up! The light finally goes on...(in my dim head)
My positive battery cable was a bit corroded at the terminal...
How I always overlook the obvious...  Funny that. |
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GusC2it
Samba Member
Joined: June 23, 2005
Posts: 1376
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
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73kombi
Banned
Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 1215
Location: ~The London Bridge, AZ~
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| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| GusC2it wrote: |
| Any recommendations for cleaning and lubing the starter solenoid? |
I've used white lithium grease....it works pretty damn good...YMMV. |
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ccpalmer
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2006
Posts: 3850
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| 73kombi wrote: |
Funny side note...this morning I go out to start Bessie...NADA (nothing)
So I assume it's my cheap azz relay fix. I check out everything, still nothing...get a jump start, she fires right up! The light finally goes on...(in my dim head)
My positive battery cable was a bit corroded at the terminal...
How I always overlook the obvious... Funny that. |
And that's why the best solution is to cure the problem and not the symptom... Good connections and good wire are much better than a relay!
_________________
'71 Westy |
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73kombi
Banned
Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 1215
Location: ~The London Bridge, AZ~
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| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ccpalmer wrote: |
| And that's why the best solution is to cure the problem and not the symptom... Good connections and good wire are much better than a relay! |
Oh, not so fast cowboy...the starter problem has been going on for 6 weeks...maybe longer. It was just this morning that 'everything' failed.
Yes, I disconnected my relay (takes all of 5 seconds)...NADA...without the relay, she still wont start...when HOT.
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keifernet
Samba Search & Rescue
Joined: May 11, 2002
Posts: 19395
Location: Samba Center for Behavioral Science
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| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| 73kombi wrote: |
| ccpalmer wrote: |
| And that's why the best solution is to cure the problem and not the symptom... Good connections and good wire are much better than a relay! |
Oh, not so fast cowboy...the starter problem has been going on for 6 weeks...maybe longer. It was just this morning that 'everything' failed.
Yes, I disconnected my relay (takes all of 5 seconds)...NADA...without the relay, she still wont start...when HOT.
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Be sure to change the starter bushing sooner than later  |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| 73kombi wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| sometimes the armature will expand when a starter is hot and then it takes more current to make it turn. |
By current I assume you mean AMPS...and yes, that's the issue.
My only concern is the amp draw of the solenoid...the relay is rated @ 7 amps....(but I could use both halfs)
anyone know what the solenoid draws? she's been workin' for 2 days like this.
peace |
According to the factory manuals that I have, a Starter solenoid pulls 40 amps pull in, and 20 amps hold in. It takes the extra for pull in, because it has to slide the bendix out. And the 20 amps is what it takes to keep it there, against its spring.
Your 7 amp relay will not last long. I have seen 30 amp relays fail after 3 months.
If you want a relay that will last, get an "X" relay from a water cooled car.
They are rated for 40 amps.
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| was a paltry 7.84 volts |
find the real problem. Such a drop shouldn't take more than 2 minutes with a volt meter to find. MAybe 10 minutes to fix.
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SG......pleez, drive that bus of yours a couple hundred thousand miles, and then install a relay...it will take a lot of "Bus Shows" to rack up that mileage, but I'm sure you'll figure it out.
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73 Kombi - if you didn't have such a pattern of slamming everyone every chance you get I would listen to what you say but with a history like yours it is easy to ignore you. Besides, 350,000 miles driven in a 1971 deluxe without a hot start relay by itself qualifies me to make comments on this thread.
The statement stands. A hot start relay is a temporary fix until the owner can make time to locate the real problem.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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RatCamper
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2008
Posts: 3305
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Is there anything actually wrong with fitting the relay though? It has been on my to do list of mods for a while.
The solenoid is fine. It still engages even when the battery is that flat it can't even turn the motor. But I would like to take the strain off the starter circuit and the ignition switch.
Which starters are self supporting? I'm still using the starter from when my bay was auto. Curious if it needs a bush or not. If it does, I might order one and put it aside for the next time I have things apart. |
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ccpalmer
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2006
Posts: 3850
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| 73kombi wrote: |
| ccpalmer wrote: |
| And that's why the best solution is to cure the problem and not the symptom... Good connections and good wire are much better than a relay! |
Oh, not so fast cowboy...the starter problem has been going on for 6 weeks...maybe longer. It was just this morning that 'everything' failed.
Yes, I disconnected my relay (takes all of 5 seconds)...NADA...without the relay, she still wont start...when HOT.
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Aw; come on - I couldn't pass up that irony!!! 
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'71 Westy |
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Randy in Maine
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| GusC2it wrote: |
| Any recommendations for cleaning and lubing the starter solenoid? |
I have used this site in the past wih good results....
http://www.hallvw.clara.net/starter.htm |
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WhirledTraveller
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008
Posts: 1399
Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
According to the factory manuals that I have, a Starter solenoid pulls 40 amps pull in, and 20 amps hold in. It takes the extra for pull in, because it has to slide the bendix out. And the 20 amps is what it takes to keep it there, against its spring.
Your 7 amp relay will not last long. I have seen 30 amp relays fail after 3 months.
If you want a relay that will last, get an "X" relay from a water cooled car.
They are rated for 40 amps. |
The Muir book recommends a Ford starter contactor. That's what my bus has. It is very heavy duty and bolts on in a way that looks stockish. It certainly can handle the current, however I've heard that the Muir way is dumb because the Ford solenoid pulls just as much current as the Bosch one. I don't know, but my bus does start FWIW.
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1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Bentley per VW shows a Maximum draw of 35 amps on the solenoid at pull in and 11 amps while cranking. Anything more is considered replace the starter time per Bentley. The starter itself draws 160 amps.
If you must run a hot start relay permanently then I suggest you also run a new 16 gauge line in parallel from the ignition switch to the hot start relay Also suggested - clean all your grounds well from the battery to the frame and from the frame to the trans. One might even run a fused (at the back 60 amps max) 12 gauge wire from the battery to the fuse box to restore 12V to the front because if the solenoid has low voltage it is likely the rest of the bus does too.
As to the question on grease for the solenoid, I use a white lithium grease in a spray can with a nozzle extension. Anything heavier might bind it in cold weather.
IMHO the only things a hot start relay do for you are lower the wear on the ignition switch and add one more failure point in the system. On late bays the ignition switch is easily replaced and we carry a spare one and tumbler in case either fail.
If you need help troubleshooting a voltage drop problem PM me and I will be glad to assist you.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| WhirledTraveller wrote: |
The Muir book recommends a Ford starter contactor. That's what my bus has. It is very heavy duty and bolts on in a way that looks stockish. It certainly can handle the current, however I've heard that the Muir way is dumb because the Ford solenoid pulls just as much current as the Bosch one. I don't know, but my bus does start FWIW. |
The old style Ford starter relay will handle the full starter amp draw. They are pretty tough units and are kind of overkill for a VW hot start relay. A negative of using one is that you now will have two more exposed unfused terminals you could accidentally contact with a wrench or screw driver. I would not want one in my engine compartment. |
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greenbus pilot
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 1285
Location: Wisconsin: Rustbelt, USA baby!!
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| WhirledTraveller wrote: |
The Muir book recommends a Ford starter contactor. That's what my bus has. It is very heavy duty and bolts on in a way that looks stockish. It certainly can handle the current, however I've heard that the Muir way is dumb because the Ford solenoid pulls just as much current as the Bosch one. I don't know, but my bus does start FWIW. |
The old style Ford starter relay will handle the full starter amp draw. They are pretty tough units and are kind of overkill for a VW hot start relay. A negative of using one is that you now will have two more exposed unfused terminals you could accidentally contact with a wrench or screw driver. I would not want one in my engine compartment. |
Good point. One does not want to create sparks so close to ones' gas tank.
Another reason to put it under the seat.Like mine.......
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Sent from a white van down the street. |
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