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lifter compatibility
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ShadetreeVEE
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:14 pm    Post subject: lifter compatibility Reply with quote

i know i know.... lots of threads dealing with cams and lifters going on right now. but its roused a quick question from me, a comment about using stock lifters on an engle cam and the cam eating the lifters up??

just so happens im going to be using stock lifters on my w110 powered motor. am i screwed? theyre nos made in germany wizemanns. just hoping i dont have a mis matched combo. but the lifters came HIGHLY reccomended.
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DarthWeber
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the Engle/Wizemann combo is what Glenn Ring uses on his 2180 with success.
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jl_1303
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenn SLR'ed his Wizemann's.

Also, as I understand, there are a few types of Wizemann lifters out there, namely the light type (about 55gm) and the normal ones (about 95gm). A few members on the Samba reported sucesses using the Wizemann's with double springs.

If you are to use those with single HD springs, I do not see any problems.

Frankly, I will be interested in hearing more feedbacks from other Wizemann users with double springs and Engle cams.
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Alan_U
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slr treatment is merely assuring a nice radius on the head of the lifter. Peace of mind since its not a quick batch process on the assembly line.
However this is not a 100% success rate since the material is NOT being modified or effected.

Single valve spring application simply reduces pressure on the cam lobe/lifter contact point. Even if you look at old high mileage flat4's you'll see a concave pattern on the head of the lifter.

Oldschool german wizemanns that were the "cast" type seemed to work back in the day. The oils back then had different add packs so moly and zinc were probably an aid in antiwear.

Personally I will not use anything but udo lifters. I do feel the CB lightweights are having one of the best success rates for an inexpensive lifter. Cracking the case is not fun so I dont roll the dice when it comes to valve train.
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vwracerdave
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UDO's lifters are grossly overpriced.
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MConstable
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
UDO's lifters are grossly overpriced.


I agree totally, but not having to worry about a flat cam was worth my peace of mind when I was buying parts for my engine, so I sprung for them.
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without any decent competiton he can set the price on his product.

Considering CB's 2 piece lifters retail for $103 you can buy 4 sets of those to one of the UDO sets, but you can re-run the Udo set on a different cam and you have the piece of mind that it will not pit so that may be worth it in the long run.

Something you have to weigh when making that decision.
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veedubcrazy
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just putting this out there... I am running triple spring Tims sig heads and using lifters that come in the orange/black box. I have not split the case to look and check but I have not seen any excessive slop being created by any possible pitting. I think the name is Risolence, I think thats how its spelled.

Hope that helps...
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Udo.B.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Original wizemann lifters are no longer avaliable for more than 5 years now.Another very good quality part that is no longer avalable...
The mahle ones are produced in Brasil and have not the same quality, this is why i started manufacturing the steel lifters

If someone has original wizemann they will work with engle cams. But the only came in brown and later in blue-white boxes

Udo
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ShadetreeVEE
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mine are definitely genuine wizemanns, in NOS condition, still in the brown box, and with wax paper labeled with the wizemzann logo. ive used the febi/bilstein lifters before with an engle 100 and i know those work great. but doing a side by side comparison of the two, i can tell the fit and finish of the wizemanns are superior to the febis.

thanks for the info udo. like alot of other guys on here, id love to have a set of your lifters , but i just cant afford them at the moment Sad
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Alan_U
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
UDO's lifters are grossly overpriced.


I had a brand new mag case and experienced severe wobbled lifter bores. The cam looks beautiful and my lifters were beautiful.

If i used shubek lifters they might have exploded/shattered (I had 2 NOS sets: sold one set and gave a set to my friend), if I used soft brazilian lifters they would have turned into stumps, if I used CB lightweights they would require resufacing or may have turned into stumps.

I put my lifters (NOT resurfaced) in my old mag case with silicon/bronze sleeves. Later I ran 11.92 - 12.00's with my all steel pumpgas street car. No worries of cam/lifter breakin and other voodo rituals.

I love Udo lifters. Anyone that has never used them can speculate. Users are believers.

Darren Krewenchuk (KROC) had his bores wobble in his very old NOS german case. He was very unhappy what has happened but he couldn't believe how beautiful his lifters looked. He sleeved his case and then put those beauties back in without any reservation.

You pay for good things in life. Udo's products is one of them.
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vwracerdave
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not disputing the quality of the product, only the selling price. Doesn't matter how good they are. He is raping you on the price and putting at least 2-3 extra Franklins in his pocket every set he sells, and gouging is just wrong.
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Stripped66
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that settles it...bring a tool steel lifter to market, and sell them for $100.

If you can do it, I'll buy four sets (just to meet the total cost of Udo's lifters).



I'm not going to bring in any of the usual logic, such as the increased cost of material and labor in Europe (compared to Brazil or China), or the increased production costs associated with low volume production. Or even the increased cost of procuring and machining tool steel compared to whatever cast dog sh!t is currently being used to make lifters. I won't mention any of these points in my argument. I will, however, buy four sets of your tool steel lifters when they hit the market at $100 a set.
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB's retail for $103 and Udo's for $400.

Yes, there is a profit margin, but nobody else makes that type of quality lifter so if you want it then you have to fork out the cash.

What abou the crappy Scat lifters-they probably cost 50 cents to make-just think of the profit margin, percentage wise, on those!!!
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ShadetreeVEE
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

man i really didnt mean to start a sh*t storm here, but im kind of indifferent on the cost thing. it really boils down to quality. dont get me wrong. i cringe at the price of udo's lifters and ponder what the profit margin is on them. but at the same time look at the price difference on some of the cranks that are out there now..... a good $250 will get you a china grade whatever stroke you want... and at the same time $900-$1500 will get you a good Berg or Okrasa crank, and im sure we all know the quality difference between the two. and the cost of anything with the pauter, autocraft, or carillo name on it is comparable...why?? quality and piece of mind that your not going to have parts blowing up out of no where. with vw's these days its either go the cheap route, buy a set of lifters off ebay for $20 bucks or some crap like that and replace them after 3000miles. or buy quality and pay $100(c.b. lifters) - $400 (udos), and not have to worry about it. given i only paid $80 for the wizemanns, but for the known quality of them, i couldnt pass it up.

im sure the name has a lot of correlation with the price these days, its just a fact. for the record, if there was a set of tool steel grade lifters available on the market in the $100 range hell yeah id stock up and buy a few sets. but if anything comes out, i can almost guarantee that they'll be in the $200 range. until then i just cant afford udo's lifters like i cant afford alot of other top notch quality parts. and i can live just fine with that as long as what i have works fine.
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthWeber wrote:
I believe the Engle/Wizemann combo is what Glenn Ring uses on his 2180 with success.

Correct

jl_1303 wrote:
Glenn SLR'ed his Wizemann's.

Correct

6500 miles and no problems.

I also use Brad Penn 10W-30 oil.
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Udo.B.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stripped66 wrote:
Well, that settles it...bring a tool steel lifter to market, and sell them for $100.


That is a good idea , so i can save a lot of trouble, work and money .

I do not manufacture 1000 or more sets in china, only a few (400 pice) per charge in Germany . It is very expensive...

Udo
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1961bluebug
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are not supposed to talk about price of Udos lifters. they are definitely the top of the range and they found their happy customers. I did an extensive research but finally bought CB lifters for around 105 bucks a set. If there were tool steel lifters on the market for double the price, say 200-250 per set, I would buy them because I dumped maybe 8000 in parts into this engine, but 4-5OO was simply out of my budget. maybe IŽll regret my decision, maybe not.
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Stripped66
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1961bluebug wrote:
If there were tool steel lifters on the market for double the price, say 200-250 per set


For starters, they couldn't be manufactured in Europe for sale in the US to meet that price.

I don't know if people think that Udo runs a shop down in Orange County or what...all VW parts are expensive in Europe; with the current exchange rate, parts cost 150-200+% more than they cost here in the US.

And it wasn't much different when Gene Berg was still importing Swedish-forged rockers and crankshafts. It's not just the quality that costs a premium, but the location of origin (and all labor and material costs associated with that locale).
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Bodacious wrote:
Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor.

I don't think electrickery works that way
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1961bluebug
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand and I donŽt complain. Thanks.
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