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lifter compatibility
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Jake Raby
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that China is the WORST place to try to manufacture lifters.. Brazil is about equally worthless.

Every lifter I work with is manufactured in the USA.
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a pack of the Bugpack Racing Lifters on my bench right now. The package is marked "made in the USA" just like Jake said. They look really nice, but I have not run a set so I do not know how they will hold up under some mileage.
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Jake Raby
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Used with the right camshaft, spring pressure and lubricant (Brad Penn) you'll not have any issues.
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Jimmy111
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Udo.B. wrote:
There are a lot of tool steel on the market . I was happy to get the material number from wizemann years ago because this combination that works for years and heavy springs. But it took 4 years to find the right hardening and coating, and i learned to controll each process and changed the hardening company . It is not easy but works well when everything is done right. This can not be done in China.... that is for shure.
Regarding to crank material , there is no way to get this material work for lifters.Udo


4120 and 4140 are the 2 most widely used materials for lifters in automotive engines today.

Im not saying anything bad about yout lifters. I think that most of the other aftermarket valve train parts are inferior. If you install a set of your lifters in an engine with a cam made from inferior material the cam is going to wear quickly instead of the lifters. The lifters and cam must be made of comparable quality materials.
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gonebuggy
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As with any "bearing" type application, it is desirable to use dissimilar materials to prevent galling. A simplified example (forgetting hardness, coatings etc) Is an aluminum shaft running in an aluminum bearing. It just DOES NOT work. One part has to be harder, and one has to wear. Nothing lasts forever. But the wear period can last years, or seconds depending on the aforementioned factors listed throughout this thread. It's a matter of finding that threshold of hardness and wear characteristics in the specific application. Lifters also have to contend with some impact stress, don't forget that.

Alex
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy111 wrote:


4120 and 4140 are the 2 most widely used materials for lifters in automotive engines today.


Do you have a source citing this?
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Jake Raby
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played with lifters being made from 8620 and 9310 tool steel as well as both 4140 and 4340 chromoly... All had similar results as long as the cam wasn't soft.
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Udo.B.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy111 wrote:
Udo.B. wrote:
There are a lot of tool steel on the market . I was happy to get the material number from wizemann years ago because this combination that works for years and heavy springs. But it took 4 years to find the right hardening and coating, and i learned to controll each process and changed the hardening company . It is not easy but works well when everything is done right. This can not be done in China.... that is for shure.
Regarding to crank material , there is no way to get this material work for lifters.Udo


4120 and 4140 are the 2 most widely used materials for lifters in automotive engines today.
.


But these engines do not have that much spring pressure..

For my lifters , you can use every cam you want.

Udo
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Udo.B. wrote:

For my lifters , you can use every cam you want.

Now you're just bragging! Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
Udo.B. wrote:

For my lifters , you can use every cam you want.

Now you're just bragging! Wink


I've seen the same thing with most every material I have experienced thus far.. Most any of these materials will have the proper characteristics to work well with a chilled iron cam blank.
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Jimmy111
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gonebuggy wrote:
As with any "bearing" type application, it is desirable to use dissimilar materials to prevent galling. A simplified example (forgetting hardness, coatings etc) Is an aluminum shaft running in an aluminum bearing. It just DOES NOT work. One part has to be harder, and one has to wear. Nothing lasts forever. But the wear period can last years, or seconds depending on the aforementioned factors listed throughout this thread. It's a matter of finding that threshold of hardness and wear characteristics in the specific application. Lifters also have to contend with some impact stress, don't forget that.

Alex


Ill point out that the crank and cam bearings are aluminum. But there is a pressurized oil film which creats the real bearing surface. There should be no metal to metal contact. But in the case of a cam and lifter there is no pressurized oil surface. Just a slick coating which does not adhear well to the cam surface. The cam and lifter have metal to metal contact quite often. The hardness of the 2 parts should be simmilar or one part will wear out quite rapidly.

About the material data. I get it from SAE. If you are really interested, you should join.
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gonebuggy
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy111 wrote:
gonebuggy wrote:
As with any "bearing" type application, it is desirable to use dissimilar materials to prevent galling. A simplified example (forgetting hardness, coatings etc) Is an aluminum shaft running in an aluminum bearing. It just DOES NOT work. One part has to be harder, and one has to wear. Nothing lasts forever. But the wear period can last years, or seconds depending on the aforementioned factors listed throughout this thread. It's a matter of finding that threshold of hardness and wear characteristics in the specific application. Lifters also have to contend with some impact stress, don't forget that.

Alex


Ill point out that the crank and cam bearings are aluminum. But there is a pressurized oil film which creats the real bearing surface. There should be no metal to metal contact. But in the case of a cam and lifter there is no pressurized oil surface. Just a slick coating which does not adhear well to the cam surface. The cam and lifter have metal to metal contact quite often. The hardness of the 2 parts should be simmilar or one part will wear out quite rapidly.

About the material data. I get it from SAE. If you are really interested, you should join.


Jimmy111,

The crank and cam bearings are not entirely aluminum. They are an alloy of tin, copper, babbit, etc. You are correct that the oil film is a crucial part of any bearing system. If I'm not mistaken, the cam is submerged in oil. Yes the hardness should be similar, but not equal.

As for the SAE, I'm Canadian. I'm sure they don't want some "Hoser" joining their fraternity Laughing

Alex
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far Udo's lifters have got to be one of the best product in TODAYS MARKET.

Nothing out there in the flat tappet world that can compare. There are no lifters out there that can be broken in WITHOUT CAM/LIFTER BREAKIN. Then reused and reused and reused with confidence.

Lubrication is only a part of the puzzle. I have used expensive Ester based synthetic that is claimed to be on of the "better" lubricants out there. My professionally resurfaced Scat lifters pitted to hell, my Riosolence org/blk box SOFT cast lifters dished etc.

After my new mag case experienced large EGG shaped lifter bores. My Udo lifters were MINT. I cannot see any lifter on the market that would have held up to that severe abuse. I installed those same lifters untouched/resurfaced on a different cam in a different case. No oil in the world would have saved a cheap cast lifter.

The material of the lifter is the foundation. Oil is a lubricant and will not relieve stress at the contact point of the cam and lifter. Film strength is crucial but even the best oil in the entire world will not save a cam and junky lifter from wearing.
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Jake Raby
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Film strength is crucial but even the best oil in the entire world will not save a cam and junky lifter from wearing.

I concur.
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gonebuggy
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake Raby wrote:
Quote:
Film strength is crucial but even the best oil in the entire world will not save a cam and junky lifter from wearing.

I concur.


x3 This goes for any bearing or wear surface.

Alex
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy
The problem is not the lifters, The problem is the Cams that are produced for ACVW's. They are generally Junk.
As Jake stated they are made from Chilled Cast Iron.
Chilled Cast Iron is Iron that is cooled very quickly after casting.
There is very precise timing involved to get the required hardness and depth of chill.
If it is not correct either the part is too hard (80+) or too soft or the chill is not deep enough.
The main problem that we have on ACVW cams is that the chill is too hard but not deep enough.
So when they grind the cam the grinder grinds thru the hard layer into the soft center. The Apex of the lobe is too hard and brittle and the bottom of the lobe is too soft.
So the cam not only wears out quickly but the apex chips and pitts the lifter too.
Most lifters are hardened to about 55 or so on the base where it comes into contact with the cam. The hardening is not usually dont very well and this also leads to pitting due to the chipping of the cam lobes.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy111 wrote:

Most lifters are hardened to about 55 or so on the base where it comes into contact with the cam.


This was a post from Pat Downs on the CLF back in 2006:

Pat Downs wrote:
I have been following this post. Since there is a rockwell tester about 5 feet from me I decided to test some lifters. all test are done on the "C" scale

Stock-53
Mahle-49
CB lightweight-58
Scat-66

I seem to remember that Scats older lifters were in the upper 58-60 range. It might just be that they are too hard now which is causing the material to flake.


There is considerable variation in hardness between lifters of different brands. It goes without saying that, at the very least, you should use the lifters that are recommended by your cam grinder (e.g. if Webcam ground your cam on a Scat SC1 cam blank, odds are a stock or Mahle lifter is not compatible).
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gonebuggy wrote:
Jake Raby wrote:
Quote:
Film strength is crucial but even the best oil in the entire world will not save a cam and junky lifter from wearing.

I concur.


x3 This goes for any bearing or wear surface.

Alex


The cam sits above the oil. Not in it.

If there is no or litttle oil on the cam lobes which ever part is softer will wear. Rapidly.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gonebuggy wrote:
Jimmy111 wrote:
gonebuggy wrote:
As with any "bearing" type application, it is desirable to use dissimilar materials to prevent galling. A simplified example (forgetting hardness, coatings etc) Is an aluminum shaft running in an aluminum bearing. It just DOES NOT work. One part has to be harder, and one has to wear. Nothing lasts forever. But the wear period can last years, or seconds depending on the aforementioned factors listed throughout this thread. It's a matter of finding that threshold of hardness and wear characteristics in the specific application. Lifters also have to contend with some impact stress, don't forget that.

Alex


Ill point out that the crank and cam bearings are aluminum. But there is a pressurized oil film which creats the real bearing surface. There should be no metal to metal contact. But in the case of a cam and lifter there is no pressurized oil surface. Just a slick coating which does not adhear well to the cam surface. The cam and lifter have metal to metal contact quite often. The hardness of the 2 parts should be simmilar or one part will wear out quite rapidly.

About the material data. I get it from SAE. If you are really interested, you should join.


Jimmy111,

The crank and cam bearings are not entirely aluminum. They are an alloy of tin, copper, babbit, etc. You are correct that the oil film is a crucial part of any bearing system. If I'm not mistaken, the cam is submerged in oil. Yes the hardness should be similar, but not equal.

As for the SAE, I'm Canadian. I'm sure they don't want some "Hoser" joining their fraternity Laughing

Alex


The one piece bearings are mainly aluminum.
The alloy is AISn 10Si3

That is 87% aluminum, 10% tin and 3% silicon.

SAE-788 was the last bearing material to contain any Lead and it was only 2% and replaced the tin percentage.

No Babbit.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if UDO lifters are arround 200 dollars per/set every acvw owners will buy them. For me I might buy two sets . Wink
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