Webcam 86b - 86c or Engle FK8 - FK10

[1950split]

Hi,

In view of an upgrade of my 2110 (82x90.5) engine, I'm in need of some help.

I'm currently using a custom grind cam that has following specs :

- Total duration 295° ;
- Duration @ .050" = 254° ;
- 108° Lobe center ;
- .366" Lift at the cam

I fitted a set of 1.4 rockers and static CR 9.43 and use 45 DRLA with 36 venturis. The heads are Steve Tims Stage 1

It's the first aircooled engine I built and made 126 hp at the crank on the dyno in a 1958 street car with a 3.88 R/P 3.78/2.06/1.26/0.89 gears.

Now I'd like some more power

I've read a lot of good things about the FK-8 and the Web 86b but can't figure out if it would really make a great change compared to my cam.

Then comes the Web 86c but my heads might be to small. I therefore thought of going with a set of Steve Tims stage 2, increase the CR to 10:1. Is a 2110 enough cc for a street car with this cam ?

In this case would my 45 DRLA's be enough or do I need the mighty IDAs? The 45 DRLAs' with 2 1/2" filters fit under my hood with CB offset manifolds, which is nice when it's raining but then again with the 86c I guess that straight manifolds are a must ?

I'm not planning a change of my transmission and the car will remain a street car, therefore the cam should match these criterias.

Which cam would you go with ?

Thanks

Phil

[ALB]

Question 1- what to do if you keep the Tims stage 1 heads?
An Engle FK8 or Webcam 86B would be the obvious step up to a still streetable, well mannered motor with more power. Both have about 258'-260' @ 0.050" and similar lift, and I agree with you in thinking an 86C or FK10 might be a little much for your combo as it is now. But the FK8/86B wouldn't be much of a step up, and since you've done the custom cam thing before, how about one with 263' @ 0.050" and about 0.020" more lift than you have now? Think of it as an Engle W125 for 1.4 rockers (an FK9?). I've run a W125 (263' @ 0.050")in a street car (1750, 40x35, 44IDF's) and have always thought that amount of duration would make a great stroker motor cam.

Question 2- If you upgrade heads and 86C/FK10 you will be building a beast, and the issue is how streetable does it have to be? Is this regular transportation, or a fairweather toy? Keeping the Dellortos on it will require a venturi change but will still work. Yes, IDA's would give a little more top end, but getting air cleaners in there becomes an issue (as you know). And a lot of guys running this combo use close gears to take advantage of the new powerband, so the question becomes "how hardcore do you want this to be?"

If this car is anything near regular transportation at all I would be going with either the FK8/86B or the custom ground cam idea (I've always thought Engle should have a cam between the FK8 and 10). It would rock with the Tims stage 2's as well, making your motor that much better.

Just my 2 1/2 cents (I'm Canadian, eh). Al

PS- If you do have a 262-263' @ 0.050" cam made I'd be interested in hearing what you think of it when the motor's running. Al
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[DarthWeber]

Throwing a monkey wrench into things.............You may also want to consider the Steve Long SLR XR-302 and XR-310 cams. The same, but different. They make a nice pairing with SLR's parkerized lifters. Just something (else) to consider.

[ALB]

I used the Engle and Webcam numbers because that's what Phil (original poster) quoted. Any cam that specs close to what you're looking for will work. I'm told Steve Long's cams work well also. It's all in what you can get hold of.
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[uselescrapytwit]

[quote="1950split"]Hi,

In view of an upgrade of my 2110 (82x90.5) engine, I'm in need of some help.

I'm currently using a custom grind cam that has following specs :

- Total duration 295° ;
- Duration @ .050" = 254° ;
- 108° Lobe center ;
- .366" Lift at the cam

I fitted a set of 1.4 rockers and static CR 9.43 and use 45 DRLA with 36 venturis. The heads are Steve Tims Stage 1

It's the first aircooled engine I built and made 126 hp at the crank on the dyno in a 1958 street car with a 3.88 R/P 3.78/2.06/1.26/0.89 gears.

Now I'd like some more power

I've read a lot of good things about the FK-8 and the Web 86b but can't figure out if it would really make a great change compared to my cam.

Then comes the Web 86c but my heads might be to small. I therefore thought of going with a set of Steve Tims stage 2, increase the CR to 10:1. Is a 2110 enough cc for a street car with this cam ?

In this case would my 45 DRLA's be enough or do I need the mighty IDAs? The 45 DRLAs' with 2 1/2" filters fit under my hood with CB offset manifolds, which is nice when it's raining but then again with the 86c I guess that straight manifolds are a must ?

I'm not planning a change of my transmission and the car will remain a street car, therefore the cam should match these criterias.

Which cam would you go with ?

Thanks

I would go with the web cam the quality is the best and not bad prices but prior to ordering give them a call and ask them for help you will need some info tho
like
stroke , bore ,weight of car, fuel octain rate, compression ratio and all that stuff. tell them where you want the power and wether its track or road they will recomend and i can vouch for them spot on ....
mines a 2110 supercharged berg motor

[1950split]

Thanks a lot for your comments !

The car is really a weekend driver and therefore although it has to be quite streetable it can be more exclusive than a daily driver.

I don't know Steve Long's cams, do you have the specs of the SLR XR-302 and XR-310 ?

How would the FK-45 handle ? It's specs are :

-Total duration 295°
-Duration @ .050" 263°
-Lift at the cam .401"

I would use it with 1.4 rockers. Total lift would be .561".

How hard is this cam on the lifter bores? I don't plan to bush them..

What hp range could I expect from a FK-45 with the same displacement and stage 2 heads ? I think 38 venturis would be mandatory.

[74 Thing]

I would call Steve Timms or Greg and talk to them since they are doing your heads and can recommend something that will work well with your combination.

[ALB]

I believe the XR-302 is like the FK8 and 86B. The XR-310 is similar to the FK10 and 86C. The FK 45 would be a great choice but the general consensus is the fast ramps are hard on magnesium lifter bores. Also make sure the springs/retainers can handle that much lift.
_________________
On a lifelong mission to prove (much to my wife's dismay) that Immaturity is Forever!!

[1950split]

Thanks Al! Yes, the FK-45 seems to be very nice but what makes it that hard on the lifter bores? Too much lift or not enough duration?

Which parameters should be changed, in the case of a custom grind based on the FK-45, to cause less wearing? A larger base circle ? A different lobe center ? A dual lobe with a softer cams on the exhaust side could be good ?

I'm no cam specialist, sorry..

[ALB]

[1950split]

Sadly I don't know any machine shop that proposes the lifter bore bushing here around (Europe). Someone suggests me to use the 86c but from what I know it is not a good low-mid RPM range cam. What is the general consensus about it?

[DarthWeber]

[jeff68]

I hope my response will be helpful to you. I'm pretty much running the combination you'e asking about.
Specifically - 82 X 90.5, Berg Porsche length and journal Carillo Rods, Berg / Engle K10 cam, Art Thraen prepped with 3rd progression hole Weber 48 IDA's, CB 044 42 X 37.5 CNC ported and hand ported by Berg's these are 870 style heads / heads match ported to the Berg 590 mainifolds which are ported up to the carburetors, Berg 1:45 rockers and Berg chromoly pushrods, Berg 1 5/8 header, single dynomax muffler, Berg /shadek 26mm pump / full flowed, thing fan shroud with stock super beetle in shroud oil cooler and late model welded fan, standard size Berg eqaulizer pulley, stck diameter alternator pulley, Stinger S4 ignition, stock mecahnical fuel pump, I run 93 octane fuel, compression is set at 8:1 - You get the idea. I tried to build an engine as close to Gary Berg's Berglar engine as I could.

The engine is very steetable. Has good power through the entire rpm range. It pulls hardest from 2000 rpm to 7200 rpm. Have not revved past 7200 at this point as there hasn't been a need to. I've driven it in traffic in hot weather (I live in Florida), as well as on the freeway. The freeway trip was approximately 140 miles one way. The engine had no problems. Starts easily when warmed up and when cold. I have not dynoed the engine at this point.

The engine is in a full weight (full interior, all glass, all steel body) 1968 standard beetle. I only run velocity stack cover type air filters as a full air filter body and top would not clear the deck lid. The deck lid is run with no stand offs it looks stock until you open the decklid.

I'm pretty sure the gearbox has stock gears in it, (I will have a more robust gearbox built for it next year). The car can be driven like a stocker or as aggressive as you wish and the engine does not complain or overheat. Can get out in to traffic from a stop in second gear without the engine complaining.

So in my opinion you can definitely run this combination on the street. I drive the car 2 to three times a week to work or just to have fun. i have not brought i to the dragstrip--yet. I'm afraid I'll break the gearbox. On another website I have seen a reputable VW engine builder comment on having an Engle K10 cam gam ground a little differently to make it an even better performing cam so maybe check in to that on the "other" performance forums known for this kind of information.

Good luck!

[CJG]

I have a 86c in a 2276 and its in a street car (Ghia) and this cam is amazing the engine on the dyno made 206 hp and 185 trq at 6500 RPM'S and still has a little left in it. 86c comes on about 2800 RPM'S and will rev to the moon. I usually shift at 7200 RPM"S and have no problems with crusing on the street. My 2 cents

[ALB]

[ALB]

Phil- I just compared specs and the 86C and FK10 aren't quite as similar as I thought. The 86C has 6 degrees more duration @ 0.050" (272 vs 266) so the FK10 isn't quite on the ragged edge as we thought. Something to think about.
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86C is fine on the street, provided you have ample compression (I recommend 9.5-10.5:1), and the carbs are PROPERLY TUNED. None of this 13:1 during cruise garbage.
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[CJG]

The compression is set at 10.1

[1950split]

I read quite a lot tonight and users of the 86c usually say that bottom RPM range is not bad with that cam.

If it is softer on the lifter bores it might be a good option. However I have some doubts if it would work with my 3.88 (3.78/2.06/1.26/0.89) transaxle as there are contradictory opinions on this thread

[Alan_U]

No where did I see what "desired" rpm range in the top end.

With a 3.88 r/p and stock gears I probably would'n't go 86C.

Seeking power and driveability theres a fine balance. Everyone has their interpretation of what is "driveable".

For a stage 2 head the intake port is a decent size. I'd say for the most part a 7200 redline is more than enough to make good HP without beating on your engine case.

An 86B on a dyno will probably start showing a decline in HP at around 6200 rpm (ballpark depending on intake port size/flow/venturi size/ throttle plate size etc etc lotsa variables). However by the inaccurate seat of your pants you'll probably find shifting at 7000 will be great for keeping up the rpms as you shift.

For a street car I'd say 9.5:1 c/r is a good range if your in using mid/premium gas.

First of all please sleeve your lifter bores with silicon/bronze. Its a phenominal bushing material.

A rampy cam like and fk45 will make the engine feel more responsive down low rpms with your gearing. The issue I see is you will never know the difference until you fine tune your car properly and use different camshaft profile.

With my 2332 I loved my CB2289 cam (similar to 86C). The much larger fk47 cam had similar low end torque but gave me more headroom in the rpms. Due to engine issues I went with a fk46. I absolutely love this cam.

In your case I'd go with a smaller cam and go larger in duration /or rampier cam profile "IF" you dont think its big enough. For a street car with your gearing I'd want "pleasure" as a criteria. If you want more extreme I would go more extreme in heads/cam/carburation or FI and without a doubt shorter gearing.

Sorry for no real answers. Are you going stage 1 heads? or stage 2? What kind of REDLINE are you wanting???? are you gonna increase the size of your venturi's in your 45drla?

As a blanketed suggestion I'd say sleeve your case (eliminate being a statistic in wobbled lifter bores), for more grunt go with an fk40 series cam. 86B is a good choice but if you want more headroom (higher redline) you'll need a bigger cam and larger intake ports.
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