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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20231 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:04 am Post subject: |
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iamdonquixote wrote: |
I can't see for the life of me why this would be a worthwhile endeavor.
No, the engine will not last longer on propane, it will be very hard on it.
When I asked Bob Donalds once ( who built scores of sp engines for Zambonis ) what the propane was was like he said.
"Imagine a 16 kid driving a bus up mount everest"
Its way hard on the valvetrain.
and thats just what I want in a bus, to have less power and have to bum around for the cheapest propane |
Why is it hard on the valve train? Seriously, I want to know. I understand you think propane is a poor idea, but can you tell us the reasons why rather than just saying it's bad?
For Oceanarts, the octane rating on fuel today is calculated differently than it was when these cars were built. Current octane ratings aren't as far off as you may think, but the fuel has definitely changed since then. My VW's run OK on 10% ethanol, but seem to have less power and certainly don't get the same fuel mileage they once did. _________________ nothing |
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SkooobaSteve Samba Member
Joined: March 23, 2005 Posts: 3152 Location: Dothan Alabama
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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:29 am Post subject: |
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I looked into this a good while back ago. I was going to attempt to run a dual fogger system. Did alot of research, althought I do not remember alot of the info I came accross. There were a few things that had to be done to the engine although not alot. You do loose the power (what little you started with) and thats why I looked into the double fogger system.
I never got any further thought after going further and check the cost for the system..... not cheap just for messing around. So just walked away from it. _________________ Jonathan
Romans 6:13
WTB 67 beetle rear seat belts.
59 Euro ragtop build with my dad
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493553&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
65 dlx Slow build
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=391061 |
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krisbeetle Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2005 Posts: 778
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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:14 am Post subject: |
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remember, propane also has a higher octane rating, 110 if I remember correctly, so you can bump up the compression ratio to take advantage of that. I think 10:1 and possibly 11:1 is attainable. |
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20231 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.type2.com/bartnik/tech.htm
Interesting reading concerning the octane ratings of fuels. Short and to the point. Scroll down the page to "miscellaneous" and click on "what type of fuel should I be using" _________________ nothing |
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krisbeetle Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2005 Posts: 778
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:05 am Post subject: |
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cdennisg wrote: |
iamdonquixote wrote: |
I can't see for the life of me why this would be a worthwhile endeavor.
No, the engine will not last longer on propane, it will be very hard on it.
When I asked Bob Donalds once ( who built scores of sp engines for Zambonis ) what the propane was was like he said.
"Imagine a 16 kid driving a bus up mount everest"
Its way hard on the valvetrain.
and thats just what I want in a bus, to have less power and have to bum around for the cheapest propane |
Why is it hard on the valve train? Seriously, I want to know. I understand you think propane is a poor idea, but can you tell us the reasons why rather than just saying it's bad?
For Oceanarts, the octane rating on fuel today is calculated differently than it was when these cars were built. Current octane ratings aren't as far off as you may think, but the fuel has definitely changed since then. My VW's run OK on 10% ethanol, but seem to have less power and certainly don't get the same fuel mileage they once did. |
actually engines tend to last longer on propane than regular gas. Have you ever seen the crank case oil on a propane engine after the same amount of KM as a gas engine? much cleaner
as far as less power I have heard that there is a 10 percent power loss when converting. If you do not build the engine for propane or take advantage of the higher octane this is probably true as you are igniting the propane far before its flash point.
at this point with propane at 78 cents a liter and gas 99 cents its not worth it at all. |
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Ellectronico Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2002 Posts: 529 Location: porterville
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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I like the idea of this. Not so much for savings or environmental reasons but for Inovation/novilty reasons. Sounds like a fun project and a challenge to get it running good with a dual fuel set up. lets keep this up.
just found this link. a good read and very informative
http://www.type2.com/~keen/west/nodark/other/lpg _________________ www.56panel.com
www.killerjunk.com
"you need to lower it", "it would look better lowered", "Slam that bitch!", "That would be a slutty bitch if it was lowered", "That bitch would be a bitchin bitch of a bitch bitch bus if it was on its nuts, bitch" |
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trainingman Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2007 Posts: 88
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sub-hatchtim Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2006 Posts: 2610 Location: Phoenix AZ
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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propane has no lubricating properties its very hard on the valves and cylinders the only way i could think of making it work well is using a oil injector system like on a 2-stroke
propane is but left for cooking
_________________ 58' pg/sg silo fridge westy
58 Dove blue singlecab
76 911S |
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Culito 11010101
Joined: December 07, 2006 Posts: 5863 Location: Columbia Missourah
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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sub-hatchtim wrote: |
propane has no lubricating properties its very hard on the valves and cylinders the only way i could think of making it work well is using a oil injector system like on a 2-stroke
propane is but left for cooking
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Gasoline has lubricating properties? _________________ Copyright CJ Industries, Inc.
'64 standard w/2.0L type 4
'62 bug
johnnypan wrote: |
...dont pay no attention to Culito,he's a cornhole.. |
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sub-hatchtim Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2006 Posts: 2610 Location: Phoenix AZ
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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gasoline contains certain additives that aid with lubrication such as tiny amounts of lead and zinc _________________ 58' pg/sg silo fridge westy
58 Dove blue singlecab
76 911S |
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20231 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Culito wrote: |
sub-hatchtim wrote: |
propane has no lubricating properties its very hard on the valves and cylinders the only way i could think of making it work well is using a oil injector system like on a 2-stroke
propane is but left for cooking
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Gasoline has lubricating properties? |
Yes actually, it does. That is what makes in-tank fuel pumps work. (though often they fail early, that is a design/construction flaw)
So if propane has no lubricating properties, how is it that so many propane engines seem to last a long time? I really want to know the facts on this. _________________ nothing |
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sub-hatchtim Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2006 Posts: 2610 Location: Phoenix AZ
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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most propane powerd cars are not actually full propane powerd, most do their majority of driving on gasoline then swap over to lpg, some use it as an assist to help increase mpg _________________ 58' pg/sg silo fridge westy
58 Dove blue singlecab
76 911S |
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Ellectronico Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2002 Posts: 529 Location: porterville
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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So anyone get around to trying this recently? I still want to try this. I have found a good tank. I think its 8 gal. If anyone does this please take lots of pics. A good how to would be great as well. _________________ www.56panel.com
www.killerjunk.com
"you need to lower it", "it would look better lowered", "Slam that bitch!", "That would be a slutty bitch if it was lowered", "That bitch would be a bitchin bitch of a bitch bitch bus if it was on its nuts, bitch" |
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tattoo8877 Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010 Posts: 1 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:01 am Post subject: The EPA can stick it |
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The Propane or natural gas conversion is very popular in every other country but the USA. Its also legal everywhere else. Parts of Italy use it exclusively. For some reason the EPA in the USA thinks that a safer, less polutant and cheaper gas is bad. As long as your vehicle is Pre-76 they have no say in the mater. The only issue that may be cause for trouble is filling the tank. I plan on tapping into my home gas supply to make my own filling station which IS legal. However by using the gas to power a motor vehicle I wont be paying a road tax. I'm pretty sure the EPA wont show up with a warrant.
Safety:Propane doesnt "pool" like gasoline when spilled. Propane has a higher flash point. Propane tanks are far more durable than gasoline tanks.
Cleaner: Propane burns 70% cleaner than gasoline. Cleaner for the air we breath and cleaner for your beloved VeeDub. Less carbine in your rings, bearings, valve seats etc. Essentually, you would have fewer oil changes.
Performance: Propane has a higher octane rating but doesnt expand as much as gasoline. Less performance but not by much. You can run a higher compression ratio or a longer duration cam to easily compensate. Also propane naturally compensates for changes in atmosphere, it is self-atomizing and finally CHEAPER.
It seems like the going rate to have the conversion done is around $3500 with NO warrantee. I suggest the "Do-it-yourself" method for under a grand. This is not a new idea and the resources are endless. |
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EODinert Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2003 Posts: 464 Location: PHX, AZ
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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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I looked at this a while back, and noticed a plethora of carb options. Anybody know the correct size carb for an ACVW? _________________ '61 rag top beetle, '73 type 181, '66 13 window deluxe |
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BarryL Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004 Posts: 14216 Location: Casa de Oro, California
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Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:59 am Post subject: Re: The EPA can stick it |
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tattoo8877 wrote: |
...Propane doesnt "pool" like gasoline when spilled. |
I've seen a couple boats explode from propane. I thought it did pool. |
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MrBusCo Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2007 Posts: 1561 Location: stoughton, WI
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Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:15 am Post subject: Re: The EPA can stick it |
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BarryL wrote: |
tattoo8877 wrote: |
...Propane doesnt "pool" like gasoline when spilled. |
I've seen a couple boats explode from propane. I thought it did pool. |
Propane is heavier than air, so it will "pool" if given an area to collect in. like say a boat hull. _________________ Josh The Bus Guy formerly known as JOGR
BlazeCutUSA.com MrBusCo.com |
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SkooobaSteve Samba Member
Joined: March 23, 2005 Posts: 3152 Location: Dothan Alabama
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8497 Location: PNW
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Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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I was just thinking the same. I just moved to NorCal and the E10 is really killing the bug. I drive 150 miles a day and can only squeeze 25mpg out of the bug.
stock 1600
dual ict
412 trans
It used to get 29 but now I am lucky to get the 25 on a good tank.
I have some CB FI manifolds which I am thinking to put some injectors (was going to put water injection). Can you use injectors for propane and run a MS box to regulate? This way I can have the dells running gas and the injectors for propane.
Maybe an engle 125 and 10:1 on a 1915? |
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SkooobaSteve Samba Member
Joined: March 23, 2005 Posts: 3152 Location: Dothan Alabama
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