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Webcam 86b - 86c or Engle FK8 - FK10
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1950split
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Alan,
You're absolutely right, I need to define more precisely what I'm looking for.

On my current combo, I have 126hp with the belt on (143 without but this is not relevant for a street car). My transaxle equiped with a Quaife diff "eats" 30hp. I end up with 96hp at the wheel according to the dyno.

The car weighs 1985 lbs (full metal with stock interior)

I intend to use 95% of the time the car on street, national roads mainly, some highway sometimes and some longer trips to meetings (about 600 miles one way once or twice a year) and possibly participate at some drag racing events in Europe. A top redline of 7200 RPM is therefore fully satisfactory.

My "target" is to get back the hp eaten by the gearbox and a small extra bonus of power. I'd be happy with 170-180 hp at the crank Very Happy Carbs will remain 45 DRLA with 38mm or 39mm venturis for the time being.

At first hand, I didn't intend to open up the bore to 94mm as with my 90.5 cylinders I have a 9.5 CR. Therefore I thought of getting 90.5 stage 2 heads (42x37) and a more aggresive cam. However if this induces a "peaky" cam that is not streetable according to my definition I might as well go for a 2276, a more conservative cam -FK-8- AND 94mm stage 2 heads. Would this last combo reach the targeted hp ?

Anyway, if using a 86c or Fk-45 or similar I will certainly have open the case in order to radius my lifter bores to get a proper clearance of the cam to the lifters. As for the lifter bushing, I'm very much convinced that it is THE solution to premature wearing however, as mentionned previously, I'm not aware of a machine shop in Europe doing this work.

In case of the FK-45, which sounds like a fantastic cam, what type of maintenance at which frequency does it involve? If I'm not bushing the lifter bores, what would be the lifespan of my bores, starting with a nearly new AS-21 case and driving at max. 3500-4000 miles a year ?

Thanks

Phil
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MURZI
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil I am building almost the same exact combo right now. It is for a car that is driven maybe 2000-3000 miles a year. I drive it to car shows or the occasional burger joint. I too am shooting for about 175 at the crank.

here is what I went with.
82mm DRD Crank, 5.4 DRD H beams, 94mm pistons, FK44 cam 258 @.050, .555 lift, Steve Tims Stage II's, and 45 dells with 38 vents. I have been talking/buying with Darren @ DRD and he has been a wealth of knowledge. He is confident that this combo will make 175hp easy and even more with IDA's. I am shooting for 9.2-9.4 static compression so I can run 93 octane pump gas.

Here is a chassis dyno shot of a similar 2276 with smaller D port heads. Just look at the torque curve..........My car is going to be street driven and it is a heavy 'vert so TORQUE is where it is at for me. But...It should still run low 13's...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Alan_U
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

50split,

Lifter bore lifespan is unpredictable. I had a new mexi as41 wobble bores in less than 1000miles. I wobbled them to an egg shape. My cam still looks mint and so do my udo lifters. If I used another lifter I would have had debris everywhere internally. I put my engine back together with my high mileage sleeved lifter bore case with a different cam (fk46) and reused my udo lifters (no resurfacing Wink )

Never heard of that much parasitic loss from a quaiffe. I ran exact HP and MPH in the 1/4 when swapping to a quaife.

I'd rather use an fk46 than an 86C for your application. You'll find the fk46 to pull upto 7200 no problems. It will be harder on lifer bores though. Even with that duration of the fk46 it'll be more responsive and peaky.

to have a more pleasureable ride even a engle fk10 will be peppy and give good headroom in the rpms. I'd analyze exactly what you want and if you want a pleasure/fast ride I'd go engle fk8 or 10 or 86B. Even if you use an 86C you'll probably find the bottom end to be acceptable. If you swap it with an fk40 series cam you'll soon see how peppy a rampy cam is in comparison.

the tims heads stage 2 will work fine. 043 or go3 castings will have smaller intake ports so port velocity is a given.
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DarthWeber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MURZI ME!!!! Holy crap, 160 lb-ft from 2.5k - 5k. What a motor!! Very Happy
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jamestwo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I like the FK-45. Bottom end is great, and HP is also good. In my car I could go from a dead stop in third gear to 104 mph.

The down side to the FK cams is the steep ramps. I would have the lifter bores bushed and realize that the the valve train is going to have a shorter life.
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getgeoff
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would the fk10 perform if you used an adjustable cam gear and you advanced it so the power comes on faster like the fk8. Would that reduce the effect of laydown with stock gearing in 3 and 4th?
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neil68
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:15 pm    Post subject: FK8 vs 86C Reply with quote

I recently switched my Engle FK8 for a Web 86C with no other changes to my 2332 cc (except lifters). Kept the 10.5:1 CR, IDA's, 1.4 rockers, 1.75" header, 44 x 37 K-roc heads, etc. Both cams ran fine on the street with the FK8 just a touch smoother. Here are the two Dynojet tests and HP charts:

FK8 = 169.2 WHP/165.9 ft. lb. torque:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UqSJdRngJI
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


86C = 180.4 WHP/170.0 ft. lb torque
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF2gCti3dro
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo
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Ian Godfrey
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil,
Could you tell me what size venturies, e tubes, mains and airs you used. to get the results. Its a very smooth power band from both cams. I know the heads help a lot too.
The other day I got 160 hp (flywheel) from my 86B with 40 vents.
I think there is a bit more in it with some more tuning. After driving it, I wish I'd gone 86C.
ta
Ian G
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neil68
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:42 pm    Post subject: Jetting Reply with quote

Ian Godfrey wrote:
Neil,
Could you tell me what size venturies, e tubes, mains and airs you used. to get the results. Its a very smooth power band from both cams. I know the heads help a lot too.
The other day I got 160 hp (flywheel) from my 86B with 40 vents.
I think there is a bit more in it with some more tuning. After driving it, I wish I'd gone 86C.
ta
Ian G


42's, 170's, 210's and can't remember the e's. I live at 3,640 ft elevation, so I've played with the jetting a bit to get to this point. Here's the FK8 torque curve...I didn't get a torque chart for the 86C as the printer failed Sad
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo
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DarthWeber
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great info neil68, thanks for sharing.
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fivelugshortaxle
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Resurrectinv this thread. Couple of quick question. Apparently i measured de,k in orrectly the first go around and I just did it again and double checked. I've got a positive deck of .019. Will I be okay running .060 copper gaskets for a deck of .041 and allowing for a bit of copper crush which brings compression to about 10.5:1 ? Web 86b cam. I think I know the answer but theres a lot I though I knew and fojnd out I didnt.

Aircooled John you out there? Or should I buy another cam......hahahaha.....and go with the 86c? Obviously not a well planned out build. Rockers measured out to 1.34:1. Swipe style measured to center of the "swiper".
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Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

86C is the wildest cam I'd consider really a street cam. 86B is very drivable and tame with the right combo, 86C is not. 86C works best with close ratio gears.

Your 10.5:1 is a better match for the C than the B.
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fivelugshortaxle
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
86C is the wildest cam I'd consider really a street cam. 86B is very drivable and tame with the right combo, 86C is not. 86C works best with close ratio gears.

Your 10.5:1 is a better match for the C than the B.


My heads, exhaust, transaxle that Rancho is building is a better match for the 86b. Think I'll order some .075 copper head gaskets to get me to .056 and 10:1. Still nice and tight.Who sells them in that size? Or who can make them? Can any machine shopmake them? Couldn't I just bring them my .040 vaskets so they know the exact size and machine some out to .075?
_________________
Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc
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modok
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stamped shims come out better at smaller thicknesses.
Better to use .040 copper and .020-.030 steel spacer.

Spacing out the deck is not best, open up the chamber by the plug and exhaust valve, this puts the mixture.....by the plug, instead of trapped in the quench zone!


Last edited by modok on Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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fivelugshortaxle
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

modok wrote:
Stamped shims come out better at smaller thicknesses.
Better to use .040 copper and .030 steel spacer.

Hmmmmm....do they make a .035 steel spacer?
_________________
Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc
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esde
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rimco will custom grind spacers to whatever thickness you need, for between the case and barrels.
You really, really have to pick a cam, and stick with it. Or at least keep the indecision confined to your build thread. If and when you ask for help, nobody knows what your doing because you have questions and changes cross posted across several threads. I'm sure it sounds like bitching, and it is, but for f sake someone has to speak up.
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fivelugshortaxle
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

esde wrote:
Rimco will custom grind spacers to whatever thickness you need, for between the case and barrels.
You really, really have to pick a cam, and stick with it. Or at least keep the indecision confined to your build thread. If and when you ask for help, nobody knows what your doing because you have questions and changes cross posted across several threads. I'm sure it sounds like bitching, and it is, but for f sake someone has to speak up.


For F sake, its documented in my thread why my dumb ass had to make the change. My chambers are maxed at 53cc so I cant get a good compression for the Engle120 and atill keep a good quench. Got the SLR XR310 cam so I could run a bigh CR and come to find out SLR cams arent compatible with Udo Becker lifters. I didnt spend 400 on udos to stick them in the shelf. Decided to get ahat I should have got in the first place, the 86b. Got the motor apart and mocked up. Re measured deck amd it turns out I have a positive decm of .019. Not sure how I missed that the first time but I did. Hey, screw ups are great for learning. Rancho is already buildkmg the transaxle and its not with close ratio gearing so Im stickjng with the 86b. I'm going to figure out how to make it work. I need .055 xeck to get 10:1 cr.
I searched the forum, fojnd this thread and posted the question since it had the 86b and 86c in the thread. Figured id keep it on subject. But thanks. Not trying to be a jerk, but the post police can get a bit out of hand. I had a legitimate question and it fit this thread.

Anyway, I emailed Shawn Geers and asked about the two options. ... .075 copper gaskets or use my .04p gaskets and have them make .035 steel spacers. Sorry if my posting is squirrely.
_________________
Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc
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fivelugshortaxle
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

modok wrote:
Stamped shims come out better at smaller thicknesses.
Better to use .040 copper and .020-.030 steel spacer.

Spacing out the deck is not best, open up the chamber by the plug and exhaust valve, this puts the mixture.....by the plug, instead of trapped in the quench zone!


When brothers VW opened up my chambers , the said 53cc was all they could get out of them. I understand spacing out the deck isn't the best option, but I dont have many choices right now. Other than order new heads with the cc I need. ...but I'm not doing that. I want to see these 050's work.
Long, painful learning experience.
_________________
Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc
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modok
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, but a good question deserves a good answer.
AND, he might be listening carefully now Very Happy
The cheap shims aren't exact. Just get the deck .045-.055

Spacing out the deck is not best idea. Open up the chamber by the plug and exhaust valve, this puts the mixture.....where it will burn quick, instead of trapped in the quench zone!

There is no need to be afraid of Compression, just KNOCK!
Tight deck stops knock. In the range of .060-.090 it can promote knock Shocked
REALLY!

Rimco's spacers are kickass, if you need a spacer over .060" thick then yes, have them make them for you.
I can put a 3or4cc dish in pistons in about 30 minutes.
lemme see a pic of the chamber
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modok
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked and found pics of his chambers.
They are cut out too big everywhere EXCEPT where I just advised.

Now THAT is some ironic stuff!
yall are hereby awarded the scat pittted lifter of shame for team screw up category.


Last edited by modok on Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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