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2.1 top end rebuild qvestions.
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beatrich
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:30 pm    Post subject: 2.1 top end rebuild qvestions. Reply with quote

Hey Y'all,

I'm going through a 2.1, and doing a top end job. The engine had about 75K on it, and developed a good head leak which necessitated teardown. Two cylinders were stuck as a duck, so they all came off. I hope to get 15- 20K out of this, seems reasonable. I'd like to save some cash on this engine, I have my eye on a 2.2 upgrade in the next year or two.
I'm reasonably aware of the problems in higher mileage engines (rod bolts, cam bearings) but am looking to keep this one road worthy without breaking my meager bank, and avoiding splitting the case.

On the list:
-regasketting the engine
-new piston rings
(broke a ring on head removal)
-reusing OEM heads, some pitting, but no cracks between valves, checking valve guides, new exhaust valves
-new oil pump
-new clutch

From what I've read, (budget top end rebuilds seem to be the black sheep of engine R&R) here are some other things, that are doable without splitting the case. I'd like to hear input on which projects are worthwhile for the money investment (I've got time)

Things I'm on the fence with-

-rods/rod bearings (bearings seem tight, but they're cheap)
-lifters

A few other questions- This engine came out of a syncro doka, (a low mileage firewood hauler) and has the single pulley. I'd like to switch to a triple pulley, what do I need to exchange them? I see that there is a difference in fitment, and I have the other oil filler tube to fit the triple. Next question- Is there any way to slip the plastic part of the filler tube off of the syncro metal part, and onto the 2wd metal tube? I broke the plastic part of the 2wd one on removal from the van. Last one- Do you lap the cylinders into the heads? Or is that just an aircooled thing, when you don't use the ring?

Thanks all-
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deprivation
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure you've read this already but a set of remand rods and bearings just isn't that much. A set of bearings is less than 30 bucks - a set of rods is $100, add in a new rear mainseal (and end-play check/shim) and you're good for another skillion miles.

I mean, as long as the engine is out...

New lifters? If the ones you have are running okay and they're still matched, I'd keep 'em.
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kenwilfy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:45 pm    Post subject: Head work Reply with quote

If I were going to reuse the OEM heads I would just have the heads and valves checked at a machine shop and if they looked good just have a valve job done and leave the OE exhaust valves in place. They are better quality than any but the most expensive ones you can buy and if they are fine why change them? I can get you a nice set of Grant piston rings that are inexpensive, made in the USA and very good quality. They have been in business for almost as long as there have been cars. Must be doing something right.

Oil Pump is probably fine. Unless you are going to install a High Volume one I wouldn't bother replacing it. Again, they are the thing that is just sitting in oil all the time so why would they wear out? They usually don't.

You do not have to lap the cylinders to the head.

If you replace the rod bearings I would be sure to replace the rod bolts as well as the original ones are one use, stretch type bolts. I would recommend replacing them with non-stretch type bolts that we have in stock. These are VW rod bolts but they are not torque to yield so they don't have the problem that the OE ones have to continuing to stretch over time and causing low oil pressure. Boston Engine was using these rod bolts in all of his motors because of this issue. Let me know if I can help you out with anything further.
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morymob
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Head work Reply with quote

kenwilfy wrote:
If I were going to reuse the OEM heads I would just have the heads and valves checked at a machine shop and if they looked good just have a valve job done and leave the OE exhaust valves in place. They are better quality than any but the most expensive ones you can buy and if they are fine why change them? I can get you a nice set of Grant piston rings that are inexpensive, made in the USA and very good quality. They have been in business for almost as long as there have been cars. Must be doing something right.

Oil Pump is probably fine. Unless you are going to install a High Volume one I wouldn't bother replacing it. Again, they are the thing that is just sitting in oil all the time so why would they wear out? They usually don't.

You do not have to lap the cylinders to the head.

If you replace the rod bearings I would be sure to replace the rod bolts as well as the original ones are one use, stretch type bolts. I would recommend replacing them with non-stretch type bolts that we have in stock. These are VW rod bolts but they are not torque to yield so they don't have the problem that the OE ones have to continuing to stretch over time and causing low oil pressure. Boston Engine was using these rod bolts in all of his motors because of this issue. Let me know if I can help you out with anything further.
I always lap cyl to head,these things being prone for compression leaks i want the best fit i can get. 1st wbx i owned or ever worked on ,the current owner said it leaked and the mechanic couldn't find problem so doing a overhaul and taking each cyl and a few circles on a piece if flat glass with about 320 paper showed a grove across seating surface/to head thus the comprssion leak. Just an old habit from aircooled days,my 2cts.
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funagon
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with everything Ken says.

At 75k you don't have to change lifters or oil pump, not if they were working well, and not if you're considering a new engine in the forseeable future.

As long as the engine's out of the van you should change the water pump. Unless it looks brand new.

Usually you would only lap the cylinders into the heads if you're building an engine without the metal head gaskets. Omitting the metal gasket changes your engine's compression ratio slightly, and may require a different water jacket seal among other things. I think this is what morymob does and he makes his own rubber water jackets custom, from silicone rubber. But unless you intend to change your engine's compression ratio, a stock rebuild means using new head gasket sealing rings (which come with the engine gasket kit), and that should not require lapping cylinders into the heads.
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Pascal
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:36 am    Post subject: Re: 2.1 top end rebuild qvestions. Reply with quote

beatrich wrote:
. Last one- Do you lap the cylinders into the heads? Or is that just an aircooled thing, when you don't use the ring?


I did on my 1.9 because there were small scratches at the sealing surface that I did not like. 10K on them now. Other than that I followed the process Ben describes on his web site.
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beatrich? Sound like Beatrice.. Smile

Budget! Well...

You didn't break the ring, it was already broken. 1 on 2 engine have a broken top ring Smile

Do nothing to the head unless you have an obvious problem.

No need for oil pump, they are strong as hell.

Good move on the clutch. Change water pump, so easy wile the engine is out. If it's not out, well, your up for some swearing big time.

Change as many small cooling hose as you can.

You should be fine for a few years.

Ben
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beatrich
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice, guys.

I've decided to grab some stuff from Rocky Jennings, In Walla Walla Washington. He's got remanned pistons, sleeves and rings for a good deal, and I'm trading him a few old engine cores for most of the cost.

If you Northwest folks ever need anything, Rocky is about as knowledgeable as it gets.
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deprivation
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beatrich wrote:
I've decided to grab some stuff from Rocky Jennings,

That's where I got my piston/ring set. He's the man, man. Please keep us posted in your project.
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beatrich
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the work schedule I've decided on, might be overkill on a low miles engine.

Tranny shaft seal/check oil slinger
Throwout bearing
Clutch package, flywheel resurfaced
New pilot bearing
New gaskets and seals all around
95.5 pistons,rings and cylinders
Remanned rods w/AC bolts
Rod bearings
10c throttle body fix
New H20 pump
Check and R&R oil pressure relief valve
Valve job on heads
Switch to triple pulley

I've had this engine on my shop table almost as long as I've had it in the Westy, it was a used swap in, and I didn't take the time to get at everything I should have while it was out the last time.

Stripped a flywheel bolt, got it out by JB welding a star bit in there, and using plenty o'heat and a cheater pipe. Anyone have an extra?

Lots of seal residue from the crank seal stuck to the sealing surface. Any tips, on how to clean that up w/o scratching the sealing surface?

Good deal on the 95.5 kit from Rocky Jennings! A lot cheaper than some other kits with a little more bore.
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purplepeopleeater
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good deal from rocky?....man times must be tough Laughing
But yeah, he knows wbx's real good and sells top notch stuff.


beatinrich, you local in the area? check out my page.
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