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'58/'59 Beetle Discussion
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spectre6000
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:47 am    Post subject: '58/'59 Beetle Discussion Reply with quote

To avoid further thread hi-jacking, we are discussing some of the finer points differentiating the '58 and '59 model years.

bill may wrote:
58 and 59 rear fenders are the same. 58/59 front fenders the same. 1960 lost the dimples between bolt holes.

I really could have used this information a while back.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=393685&highlight=fenders
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392797&highlight=fenders
I asked a few more times in a few more ways in a few more threads, and each time got different answers. The most common and convincing answer I got was that the flare on the front fenders near the running board stopped early in the '59 model year, as evidenced by the existence of og metal conduit fenders (which stopped with the '60 model year) without the flare. This is corroborated by the suggestion that the '59 model year (at least in some markets) started "early in the '59 model year" (say, around November).

bill may wrote:
difference between 58/59 split case trans chassis and 64 tunnel case trans? 1 difference between 58/59 and 64 is torsion bars and covers were changed in 1960 model year. by the way what is a coupe???? a hardtop beetle is a limosine.

Also something I've been told multiple times to the contrary. I know the trans is different, I had no idea there was a difference in the chassis beyond that. What are the differences?

bill may wrote:
if you look at PR part 1 it starts with type 2 on the nov change.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Explain please. I see the references in the photo above to various Type 2s, but I don't understand your response. Why is the November change bunk? Wilson states, and seems to think (by the photo above to be, at least in some part, validated by PR) November was the point at which the '58-'59 switch occurred.

Further, why is the home market change delay bunk? The home market was the last to get a number of changes and options over the years. The designation "export model" implying a difference between the ones leaving the country and the ones staying (both of the cars in question in the other thread were German market cars).
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AlteWagen
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: '58/'59 Discussion Reply with quote

spectre6000 wrote:
bill may wrote:
58 and 59 rear fenders are the same. 58/59 front fenders the same. 1960 lost the dimples between bolt holes.


First off, FRONT fenders NEVER had dimples between the bolt holes, ONLY rear fenders had the dimples up to 60. 56-60 rear fenders are the same.

I had an Feb 59 vert with tube fenders AND the large flair. I think the factory used up what it had then started using the "new" stampings. Not sure if Karmann had old stock compared to the sedans being made in the regular VW factory.

spectre6000 wrote:
.. as evidenced by the existence of og metal conduit fenders (which stopped with the '60 model year) without the flare.


Ive never seen a tube fender without the flare except for some fake ones being sold in the late eighties which were repro Italian fenders with tubes welded on then blasted and primed and sold for $$$.

Here are some pics of a 1960 fender with no tube in og indian red paint

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


bill may wrote:
difference between 58/59 split case trans chassis and 64 tunnel case trans? 1 difference between 58/59 and 64 is torsion bars and covers were changed in 1960 model year.


spectre6000 wrote:
Also something I've been told multiple times to the contrary. I know the trans is different, I had no idea there was a difference in the chassis beyond that. What are the differences?



59 and earlier chasis had a boss cast into the torsion housing for the trans mount, while 61 up had a stamped steel mount that was welded on.
60 model year used a split case trans with a one year only front trans mount that wrapped around the torsion housing. Not sure if the nose cone was different. The torsion covers also changed in 60, and also used a one year only bushing. Torsion rods were the same from 60- 66 when in 67 they got softer for a smoother ride resulting in the use of a factory z bar.

58-59 trans should be the same. The only difference I know of is between the De Luxe and Standard models. De Luxe had syncro and the Standard still had the "crash box". Looks like there was a third gear change in 59 but all else looks the same

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you want to put a tunnel trans in a 59 or earlier chassis you need to use the solid metal adapter mount (empi) or put a 61-67 bus nose cone and standard rubber mount.


bill may wrote:
if you look at PR part 1 it starts with type 2 on the nov change.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



spectre6000 wrote:
Explain please. I see the references in the photo above to various Type 2s, but I don't understand your response. Why is the November change bunk? Wilson states, and seems to think (by the photo above to be, at least in some part, validated by PR) November was the point at which the '58-'59 switch occurred.


The vin numbers listed in PR for the model year change corresponds with BOTH a type I and type II vin.

Type I vin numbers by month
Oct 2 149 028
Nov 2 186 987

Type II vin numbers by month
Oct 398 980
Nov 407 282
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mario_0609
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is a good idea to consolidate the research & discussion of 58/59 differences here in one single thread. When I first got my 58, I always thought the only difference between these two years was the sway bar at the beam - how was I mistaken....

I took a few pictures from the book "Der Käfer, Band 1" by H.R. Etzold, 1994. A German book which is here more or less considered to be the benchmark standard when it comes to summaries of the most important year-to-year changes. (Although I've heard that it is not 150% perfect as well)

So, here are the pictures. (I know it's all in German, maybe I can translate a few things if it helps)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

--------
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Unfortunately it says nothing about fenders, but here's another picture of my 58 - i still think they are later ones, but maybe it helps
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I also just checked my 58s' birth certificate. It states that VIN 2135954 has been built on 22 October 1958. Does that make it a 59 model or is it one of the very last 58s??

Really interesting discussion!! Looking forward for more information
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spectre6000
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone have a photo of the page pictured above in full? It looks in the photo like '59 started November 1st.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

It's not impossible that there is more outside the part visible in the photo that changes the meaning. Context is everything sometimes.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mario_0609 wrote:

...........Unfortunately it says nothing about fenders,.........


Actually it does, 6.8.59 but it refers to the mudgaurd bracket, and headlamp bucket rubber wire pipe exiting the top. This info also applies to the Ghia.
You are right, nothing for the Beetle.
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spectre6000
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'58/'59 brain dump:

From what I can tell, they're like Zwitters in that they have many characteristics of the two adjacent body styles.
-They have big windows and big window dashes
-Oval rear fenders (56-60)
-Front fenders had the metal conduits at least to midway through '59 (I've been told a number of things on this) and the flare to some degree through at least the beginning of '59 (same thing)
-Oval-style smokey plastic sun visors, but with a different shape; they're longer, less square, and slope along the top.
-The rear view mirror looks very much like the 60's rear view mirror, but I'm not sure it's completely the same where it mounts to the car or the visors.
-Oval chassis apparently
-No fuel gauge; Oval-style Dehnes would have been correct for a time, but there are big-window Dehnes as well, there were also some round fuel gauges, but the big-window style gauges will not fit!
-No windshield sprayers
-4-tab hoods
-Not a W decklid (don't tell the VW dealership here, they've got a '61 on the showroom floor with a W deck lid and a few other things, $19K for an incorrect car)
-Snowflake tail lights
-Semaphores in the European markets; sometimes they would have been shipped here and filled
-Ice pick doors/door handles
-The dash trim was chrome plated brass instead of polished aluminum (and I think maybe a different size); I may be wrong about the metal though
-Clear needle speedo
-36 horse engine w/ crashbox tranny

There are no doubt a number of other differences, but I can't think of any more.
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-'58 German Market Deluxe Beetle (in progress)
-'84 M1009 CUCV
-'81 K10
"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
"Don't feed the Shitty Parts Monster!" -Me


Last edited by spectre6000 on Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mattpeace
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the stamping on the front clip is different 58-59, the half moon stamp that goes over where the tyrods are is stamped in on the 58 and out on 59, also the stamping for the 2 fuse block is stamped more the shape of the fuse block and more defined in 58 where 59 blends into the panel more towards the bottom also 58 was the last year for the made in west germany tag below the vin plate, and as far as i understand the drain tubes in the engine compartment ended very early 59
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stale air
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, I applaud you on your hunt for finding as much info as possible as well as the correct parts for your restoration. I know how fun that can be. Rolling Eyes
My 58 has its original fenders on all four corners. Sorry for the quality of the pic, its kinda dark in my garage.
Here are a couple of pics of my front fenders, I hope it helps ya. Smile

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is from a thread in the oval forum:
derluftwagen wrote:

I would side with the PR reference. The vin numbers listed coincide with the month the "change" took place.

I would also agree that marketing and sales would say that August is the change for model year.

For example my Sept 63 is a "64" model year but has all 63 parts on it. If I went to get a replacement front turn signal or license plate light housing and told them it was a "64" I would get the wrong parts.

I have noticed that parts were used past the "model year" usually thru December or until the parts run out on both type I and type II.

I dont think assembly line workers cared what parts were used and just used what was given to them. Also I dont think VW thought their disposable cars would be scrutinized to this extent.

In the end the evidence of early parts used on "later model year" cars and later model year parts on earlier cars shows VW did what they had to do to be efficient and comply with various safety standards.

Although not 150% accurate PR is the best resource for what was happening on the assembly line.


This is an answer to the '58/'59 division that counts for all of the evidence present.

Stale air, can you take a photo of the fender down the headlight bulge by the body?
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-'58 German Market Deluxe Beetle (in progress)
-'84 M1009 CUCV
-'81 K10
"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
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stale air
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spectre6000 wrote:
This is from a thread in the oval forum:
derluftwagen wrote:

I would side with the PR reference. The vin numbers listed coincide with the month the "change" took place.

I would also agree that marketing and sales would say that August is the change for model year.

For example my Sept 63 is a "64" model year but has all 63 parts on it. If I went to get a replacement front turn signal or license plate light housing and told them it was a "64" I would get the wrong parts.

I have noticed that parts were used past the "model year" usually thru December or until the parts run out on both type I and type II.

I dont think assembly line workers cared what parts were used and just used what was given to them. Also I dont think VW thought their disposable cars would be scrutinized to this extent.

In the end the evidence of early parts used on "later model year" cars and later model year parts on earlier cars shows VW did what they had to do to be efficient and comply with various safety standards.

Although not 150% accurate PR is the best resource for what was happening on the assembly line.


This is an answer to the '58/'59 division that counts for all of the evidence present.

Stale air, can you take a photo of the fender down the headlight bulge by the body?



No, prob. Is this what your looking for? Im not really sure exactly what you meant.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattpeace wrote:
the stamping on the front clip is different 58-59, the half moon stamp that goes over where the tyrods are is stamped in on the 58 and out on 59, also the stamping for the 2 fuse block is stamped more the shape of the fuse block and more defined in 58 where 59 blends into the panel more towards the bottom also 58 was the last year for the made in west germany tag below the vin plate, and as far as i understand the drain tubes in the engine compartment ended very early 59


Can you illustrate this?
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-'58 German Market Deluxe Beetle (in progress)
-'84 M1009 CUCV
-'81 K10
"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
"Don't feed the Shitty Parts Monster!" -Me


Last edited by spectre6000 on Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:07 am; edited 3 times in total
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stale air
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Info:
Vin# 2010XXX
113, VW De Luxe Sedan
30 din-ps, 1.2 liter
* L 245 Light Bronze
Built, 7 July 1958
Left Factory, 12 July 1958
Country of Destination USA
Extras
M 128 White Wall Tires
M 350 US-equipment
M 134 Cannot be identified
* Upholstery material or leatherette Green Gray
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
58 Vert front clip
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
59 front clip
Unfrotunatally my 59 is a very early 59 so it has the 58 stampings on the clip as well as other 58 only items, so i don't have a pic of the 59 fuse block stamping, also 58 is the last year for the reinforcement plate that goes around the area the tyrods go through
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a pic of the mirror. Notice the spear in the middle of the mount, 60-64 did not have this.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is starting to become really interesting

Here are a few more thoughts

spectre6000 wrote:
'58/'59 brain dump:
-The rear view mirror looks very much like the 60's rear view mirror, but I'm not sure it's completely the same where it mounts to the car or the visors.


58/59s also had the early 56-60 outside review-mirrors
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


spectre6000 wrote:

-No windshield sprayers


my 58 has got windshield sprayers ...

@stable air, by chance, do you have also a picture of the fender directly from the side? Then we could compare the swing of the wheelhouse to other models...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattpeace wrote:
Unfrotunatally my 59 is a very early 59 so it has the 58 stampings on the clip as well as other 58 only items


What is your date of production?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mario_0609 wrote:
This is starting to become really interesting

Here are a few more thoughts

spectre6000 wrote:
'58/'59 brain dump:
-The rear view mirror looks very much like the 60's rear view mirror, but I'm not sure it's completely the same where it mounts to the car or the visors.


58/59s also had the early 56-60 outside review-mirrors
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


.

Both my 58 and 60 have the normal round outside mirror
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

58Dub wrote:

Both my 58 and 60 have the normal round outside mirror


Interesting. I've never seen an original round mirror in this style... Maybe a difference between US and Euro models?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some intresting tidbts of info here....
From production numbers, my car was made sometime in Dec '58, purchased in Feb '59, and has had a '59 title ever since.
I imagine that if you bought a VW in calender year '59, it was titled as a '59. If it was bought in '58, it was titled as a '58; I really doubt that there is a DMV in the country that gives a sh** as to when the car was made or what the model year was, because the paper trail only starts when the car rolls of the dealer lot.
Model year? I'll venture that the August 1 date is right. The page of PR under discussion appears to be all about VW pickups- and nothing to do with Type 1's
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well this thread makes me glad I had no intentions of trying to restore my 59. Still haven't got it home, but now i'm intrigued. I never realized 59 was such a transition year.
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