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Dingchowping Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2009 Posts: 134 Location: Seattle, WA.
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:18 pm Post subject: I can haz Big Brakes...FINALLY!!! (with pics) |
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Hi All,
After months of delays we finally got the adaptor bracket for my Porsche caliper project finalized a couple weeks ago (for some background on this saga, look here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...start=20), and today I managed to finagle some time at work to throw the van on the lift and get them installed.
Here are the brackets:
Here's the stock rotor on the right, and the stock rotor machined down to a hub on the left:
Stock rotor vs. D2 Audi S8 rotor (Yes...this really does fit behind a 16" wheel!:
Shadowy image of the "hub" and bracket mounted:
Everything mounted up:
Yes...the calipers are black, not red. Rest assured its the same caliper, just a different color. My red Big Reds were rather beat up and tired, and the mounting faces had been modified for another application (Audi B5 S4), so I decided to just get new calipers, and black was $120/caliper cheaper than red. We also turned down a couple hub centering rings to properly locate both the rotor and the spacer on the hub...its a minor detail, but it makes fitting the wheel MUCH easier.
The whole shootin' match behind a 16" wheel:
Its a close fit...I had to relocate some of the wheel weights so they would clear the caliper body. Not all 16" wheels will work. There's a partial list of wheels that work with the System 1 kit on BIRA's website:
http://bira.org/info_main.html
The critical variable appears to be the wheel's drop center. The 16x7.5" E.T. 37mm Avus wheel shown in the pics has its drop center located directly behind the spokes, and with the required 8mm spacer to clear the upper control arm, the leading edge of the drop center clears the widest part of the caliper with plenty of room to spare.
My driving impressions are limited at this point as I've only had a chance to drive the van home from the shop, but the results are very encouraging. Pedal is a bit firmer than stock, despite the original flexy drums in the rear. Bias isn't TOO bad, but I did feel a bit of wiggle in the rear under one particularly aggressive stop, and I wasn't close to locking up the fronts. Additionally, at the end of the drive the drums were burning hot while the front calipers were barely luke warm! Proof positive that for this system to work its best an upgrade to the rear brakes is required as well. Now that the front brake project is wrapping up its time to start on the rear brake project...hopefully it won't take 10 months as well!
There's still some sorting and refining to do on this project. I'm not at all satisfied with the brake line solution I came up with, so that will be addressed soon.
A special thanks goes out to my friend Alex at Intended Acceleration who was a HUGE help with the engineering and machining processes. His experience and no compromise attention to detail made this project possible. _________________ TTFN,
Adam
"For once you have tasted flight,
You walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward;
For there you have been,
And there you long to return."
-Leonardo da Vinci |
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240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:34 am Post subject: |
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$$$ ? _________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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SeattleDownhill Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2009 Posts: 131 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Um... Oh Hell Yes! I can't wait! new brakes and new wheels... so stoked... |
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rs4-380 Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2006 Posts: 449 Location: Maine
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:46 am Post subject: |
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front and back? _________________ Dave
87 EJ25 Syncro GL |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Nice job.
They should work out well.
The adapters look sweet.
dylan |
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purplepeopleeater Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2005 Posts: 3117 Location: E. Washington
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, Nice!
when can I expect my kit to arrive? |
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Dingchowping Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2009 Posts: 134 Location: Seattle, WA.
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the kudos everyone...this project took a lot more time and effort than anticipated (but what project doesn't?) but it was WELL worth it. The brakes were barely 24 hours old when I had an opportunity to put them to the test. On the freeway going 65, rounding a curve and traffic ahead is at a complete stop. Squeeze down on the brake pedal and put my thigh into it and bring the van to a nice, comfortable stop (well...almost...the drums were screaming bloody murder). Had I still been on stock brakes I think I would have had someone else's rear bumper as a footrest.
@ 240Gordy and SeattleDownhill: Price TBD soon. We're still hashing out the details. I'm not looking to make any money on these parts, just offset our cost for the CAD work and tooling. I should hopefully know tonight or tomorrow.
@ purplepeopleeater: We weren't planning on offering a complete kit, just the bracket with a parts list and install notes to make the install as smooth as possible. But if it makes life easier for the end user we could put together a comprehensive kit. I have no idea at this point how much it would cost though.
I still need to hammer out the brake line issue. I'm going to come up with a way to use the factory Vanagon brake hose as it will give people the option of running the stock or stainless lines while retaining the proper length and fittings. I'll probably end up making my own lines as I want stainless braided hose but I'd like to incorporate the rubber protective sleeves present on the stock parts but MIA on all the aftermarket SS lines I've seen. _________________ TTFN,
Adam
"For once you have tasted flight,
You walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward;
For there you have been,
And there you long to return."
-Leonardo da Vinci |
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240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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does the hub need to be that small?
kinda scary don't ya think? _________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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buildyourown Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2009 Posts: 1668 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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240Gordy wrote: |
does the hub need to be that small?
kinda scary don't ya think? |
Looks like the same size as the Audi based conversions. Yeah, I was apprehensive. But many others have gone before me on this, including many who stand to be sued into kingdom kong. I figured if there were failure problems, they would have surfaced in the VC and SC kits. |
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Dingchowping Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2009 Posts: 134 Location: Seattle, WA.
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Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:57 am Post subject: |
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240Gordy wrote: |
does the hub need to be that small?
kinda scary don't ya think? |
Yes the diameter of the hub is determined by the inner diameter of the rotor hat. Its the same size diameter wise as a stock Audi hub, but its twice as thick. Not an issue. _________________ TTFN,
Adam
"For once you have tasted flight,
You walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward;
For there you have been,
And there you long to return."
-Leonardo da Vinci |
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240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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and I suppose the holes look bigger than they are, being countersunk, and the threaded part is a smaller diameter than what shows at the edge? _________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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Dingchowping Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2009 Posts: 134 Location: Seattle, WA.
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Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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240Gordy wrote: |
and I suppose the holes look bigger than they are, being countersunk, and the threaded part is a smaller diameter than what shows at the edge? |
After we finished machining the rotors we had similar concerns to yours. We broke out the calipers and took some measurements and compared them to a stock Audi hub for a C4 S4/S6 and there's actually MORE material on my hub than the stock unit (a few thousandths...nothing to write home about). Plus the rotor cum hub is much thicker than an OEM hub so there's considerably more thread purchase. _________________ TTFN,
Adam
"For once you have tasted flight,
You walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward;
For there you have been,
And there you long to return."
-Leonardo da Vinci |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5390 Location: PNW
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Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Dingchowping wrote: |
240Gordy wrote: |
and I suppose the holes look bigger than they are, being countersunk, and the threaded part is a smaller diameter than what shows at the edge? |
After we finished machining the rotors we had similar concerns to yours. We broke out the calipers and took some measurements and compared them to a stock Audi hub for a C4 S4/S6 and there's actually MORE material on my hub than the stock unit (a few thousandths...nothing to write home about). Plus the rotor cum hub is much thicker than an OEM hub so there's considerably more thread purchase. |
While I have little evidence to support my concerns, the Vanagon hub is cast iron while the AUDI hub is forged steel. BIG difference! And just for the record, I do know a guy who has broken machined-to-fit-a-rotor Vanagon hub, but not an AUDI rotors. His hubs were much thicker between the outer radius of the threaded hole and the outer edge of the hub itself. It broke while he was pressing in a set of press-in studs.
If the hubs are being centered by a set of hubcentric rings, like Adam has done or plans to do, I wouldn't be quite as concerned because the hub snout will be carrying the entire load of the vehicle and the hardware is simply in place to hold the wheel to the hub in one plane, not two. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Perpel Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2010 Posts: 13
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:13 pm Post subject: SC kit vs These Porsche big reds. |
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Hi All,
Anyone know how much these porsche big red calipers weigh?
Thanks,
R |
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SyncroGhia Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2009 Posts: 2458 Location: Highnam, UK
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:35 am Post subject: |
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Big red caliper (without brake pads) weighs 9 lbs or 4.2 KG.
I'm using the same setup on Limey but with 330mmx32mm front discs from a Mercedes, again underneath 16 inch wheels.
How do get around the calipers being designed for 32mm discs and the Audi discs being 314mmx30mm? pad spacers?
MG _________________ T3 Syncro 16 S6 Westfalia Limey SOLD
T3 Syncro 6x6 SOLD
T3 RS6 Bluestar
T3 Tristar Syncro 16 SOLD
T3 Tristar Syncro RHD SOLD |
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Dobie Dude Samba Member
Joined: September 14, 2008 Posts: 56 Location: 33950
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Any update on these? _________________ "Of all the things I have lost I miss my mind the most" |
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OhChit Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2004 Posts: 271
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Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:56 am Post subject: |
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Anyone have any updates on using the Porsche Big Reds.
I've been wanting to upgrade my Brakes, considered the GoWesty Big Brake kit, and the G60's...
But I had picked up a Nice set of Porsche Big Reds a few years ago and I'm jonesing to install these Babies.
I'm just confused what I need to do to get them mounted up correctly with proper spacers / brackets and what Disc to use.
I'm running Mercedes 16" alloys wheels.
Guess one of my biggest concerns is what Disc works with the Big Reds. Would like to use the Mercedes 5x112 Disc but not sure if the spacing would line up correctly with the brackets needed for the Big Reds?
Any info out there or guys that made it work correctly ?
Anyone have a pair of mounting adapter Brackets that they wish to sell?
Thanks Jon _________________ Fast Cars, and Slow Women Makes me DrooL. |
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Jeff's Old Volks Home Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2011 Posts: 819 Location: Chester Basin, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Don't worry about the cast vs steel hub material. Unless you're using a cheap off shore rotor to start with (which has inconsistent carbon content and is often way too porous) the material is still much stronger than you need. If the bolt holes split while pressing in wheel studs, then it was sized wrong in the first place. It's still infinitely stronger than many factory set ups I've seen.
Find something else to worry about.
Jeff |
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Crankey Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004 Posts: 2656
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Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:54 am Post subject: |
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what if you have SA hubs ? do they fit this rotor/hub snout ? I would guess ot as they look like they have a little more meat on the perimeter. |
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VanaConn Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2004 Posts: 64 Location: Cochranville PA 19330
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