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ddonnell Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2007 Posts: 373 Location: Sunset Beach
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:00 pm Post subject: 2WD Lift Finished |
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Well about 7 months ago now, I started to begin the process of lifting my insanely low 2WD Carat. I looked into ALL the options, believe me. GoWesty, Syncro.org, Van-Cafe, etc, etc. I had a budget and wanted to get as reasonably high as I could within my budget. I ended up going with the Moog 5658's. Now for those with nose-high 1985 Westy's these are basically stock front springs, but for me with a Carat, these were quite the lift! I also got a more aggressive tread tire (Nexen 195R14LT). I also put Monroe shocks on all four corners. The Monroes alone lifted the van 1/4" on all corners! I was planning on doing the cutting board spacers for the rear, but my dad was skeptical about it, so I ended up having to get the AirLift airbags to assist the rear. The springs installed and the AirLifts installed (and inflated to the manufacturer's MAX of 25psi), I was sitting really nose high. I drove around like this for about 6 months (had surgery and was out for 4 of them). Last month I purchased some rear springs off of a Westy. After reading up these springs would get me close, but no cigar. With the AirLifts in they would be perfect. So now here I am posting before and after pics and hoping I didn't bore you all to death. ...Also so we don't have to explain to repeat questions, I'll just post this thread with all the links that helped me at the bottom.
Pre-Lift Ride Height:
LF-15 1/2"
RF-15 1/4"
LR-15 1/2"
RR-15 3/8"
Post-Lift Ride Height-
LF-17 1/8"
RF-17"
LR-17 1/2"
RR-17 1/4"
Should have taken them in the same area, but this is what I could scrounge together...
Before:
Fronts installed w/ AirLifts: (note the distance between top of the tire and fender)
Totally done:
Here's a clip that was taken last time I went hiking. There was a pretty steep, extremely rutted out road that led to the day-use parking area. The video doesn't do the washed out road justice though
Link
SAMBA LINKS:
Moog 5662: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=426899
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=380912&highlight=rear+spring+spacer
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=421347&start=0
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=360585
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1...p;start=20
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=321336&highlight=swap
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=105142
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=361419
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=273255&highlight=
VENDOR LINKS:
http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=4202&category_id=&category_parent_id=
http://www.amazon.com/Moog-5658-Constant-Rate-Spring/dp/B000C59U7W
http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_1236_1335/hr_2wd_lift_springs.html
Big thanks to those who directly/indirectly helped me along the way! Mightyart, Allsierra, Loogy, r39o, 1621, Presslab, Alaric.H, and PDXWesty especially! _________________ 1990 Vanagon Carat-SOLD
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 V10
1966 Baja "The Beast"
instagram #bajabugproject
Last edited by ddonnell on Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:04 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Volksaholic Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2005 Posts: 1771 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting this with all the link research included! This is one of those on-the-list-but-down-the-road project for my Wolfsburg. It's still got more clearance that, say, a Dodge Caravan, by I like the stance of the older vans better and I tend to take my vans on roads they really have no business on. Another 1" or so would be nice, then when I wear the treads off my tires I'll consider taller wheels & a brake upgrade.
Paul _________________ 1988 Wolfsburg Edition, 2001 Subaru EJ251 |
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presslab Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 1730 Location: Sonoma County
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Looking good! I'm glad I was able to help you out with the Moog info and my old rear springs. Nobody seems to want my Syncro.org front springs I have for sale, now that the Moogs are known... I think I screwed myself over on that one. _________________ 1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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foodeater Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2007 Posts: 1318 Location: Newburgh, NY
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Do you still have the Carat springs? I'm looking for a set. _________________ 89 Bluestar-2.5 Subaru Powered-RIP
'84 Westy Tiico-daily driver-sold
'82 Caddy diesel-sold
'87 Vanagon Syncro-RIP
'81 diesel rabbit-sold
'82 Vanagon auto-RIP |
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tozovr Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2009 Posts: 547 Location: York, ME
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Unless they include a helper spring (Air or coil), shock absorbers will not, ever, lift your vehicle.
Handle a shock absorber off of the vehicle...you can usually compress it by hand. "Shocks" is just the accepted nomenclature for a Damper. they dampen spring movement. _________________ ...like a young Julie Andrews all whacked out on PCP, kinda fun but kinda scary too
'83 1.6TD
DX 5 Speed
"Whistler"
www.sinisterbikes.com
Last edited by tozovr on Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CessnaJon Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2008 Posts: 677 Location: Senoia,GA
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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That looks great! what is the overall lift for front and rear? _________________ 1973 Westy (shared birthday)
1990 Westy Multivan
2015 Passat TDI 6sp
2015 Sportwagon TDI 6sp
LR-JET, Gulfstream 159 |
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ddonnell Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2007 Posts: 373 Location: Sunset Beach
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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CessnaJon wrote: |
That looks great! what is the overall lift for front and rear? |
I think I achieved about 1.5-1.75" all around. Makes a huge difference in the way it looks and handles offroad!
presslab wrote: |
Looking good! I'm glad I was able to help you out with the Moog info and my old rear springs. Nobody seems to want my Syncro.org front springs I have for sale, now that the Moogs are known... I think I screwed myself over on that one. |
Pretty much the same spring if I remember but a helluva lot cheaper!
foodeater wrote: |
Do you still have the Carat springs? I'm looking for a set. |
I am currently in process of selling the springs as we speak, the fronts went MIA in the shop that I had the springs installed in, but I did get a free alignment out of the deal! And an alignment is more expensive than what I would have sold the springs for anyways!
tozovr wrote: |
Unless they include a helper spring (Air or coil), shock absorbers will not, ever, lift your vehicle.
Handle a shock absorber off of the vehicle...you can usually compress it by hand. "Shocks" is just the accepted nomenclature for a Damper. they dampen spring movement. |
Hmmm.. Maybe it didn't... I see your point however my old ones had NO rebound left in them. Going down the road, the rear was flying all over the place.
Thanks for all the compliments guys! _________________ 1990 Vanagon Carat-SOLD
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 V10
1966 Baja "The Beast"
instagram #bajabugproject |
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presslab Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 1730 Location: Sonoma County
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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tozovr wrote: |
Unless they include a helper spring (Air or coil), shock absorbers will not, ever, lift your vehicle.
Handle a shock absorber off of the vehicle...you can usually compress it by hand. "Shocks" is just the accepted nomenclature for a Damper. they dampen spring movement. |
I'm guessing that those Monroes are gas (nitrogen) charged, so in effect they have an internal air spring. The gas charge is to reduce cavitation as the oil moves through the ports in the damper. These shocks are higher performance than non-charged ones, but once the shock wears and the gas charge is gone, the damping goes to crap. A non-charged shock won't have this problem, but most shocks these days are charged.
My guess is that they exert about 50 lbs of force. The 5658's spring rate is 579 lbs/in so that means that the shock would raise the vehicle about a 0.08" in the front. Stock rear springs are somewhere around 380 lbs/in so that would net 0.15".
Other shocks, like the Koni reds, are not gas charged. _________________ 1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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tozovr Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2009 Posts: 547 Location: York, ME
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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presslab wrote: |
tozovr wrote: |
Unless they include a helper spring (Air or coil), shock absorbers will not, ever, lift your vehicle.
Handle a shock absorber off of the vehicle...you can usually compress it by hand. "Shocks" is just the accepted nomenclature for a Damper. they dampen spring movement. |
I'm guessing that those Monroes are gas (nitrogen) charged, so in effect they have an internal air spring. The gas charge is to reduce cavitation as the oil moves through the ports in the damper. These shocks are higher performance than non-charged ones, but once the shock wears and the gas charge is gone, the damping goes to crap. A non-charged shock won't have this problem, but most shocks these days are charged.
My guess is that they exert about 50 lbs of force. The 5658's spring rate is 579 lbs/in so that means that the shock would raise the vehicle about a 0.08" in the front. Stock rear springs are somewhere around 380 lbs/in so that would net 0.15".
Other shocks, like the Koni reds, are not gas charged. |
A gas charged shock won't raise a vehicle unless the charge is significant. You can still compress a gas charged shock by hand. 50 PSI of "charge" in a gas shock could really be anything. You have leverage ratios of suspension to consider etc etc.
Remember a shock isn't just there to push up. It dampens motion up AND down. Push a shock in and it initially may be stiff because of a gas charge, but you can maintain a desired compression height with very little effort. Likely any lift someone initially sees from installing new shocks of any kind (sans helper) is from unloading the suspension and taking the measurement before cycling it through with a load. _________________ ...like a young Julie Andrews all whacked out on PCP, kinda fun but kinda scary too
'83 1.6TD
DX 5 Speed
"Whistler"
www.sinisterbikes.com |
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CessnaJon Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2008 Posts: 677 Location: Senoia,GA
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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So just to confirm:The moog springs fit all 4 corners?Same part #?Does it ride like a Vanagon should? I would like more clearance for my MV but don't want to sacrifice handling or ride quality. _________________ 1973 Westy (shared birthday)
1990 Westy Multivan
2015 Passat TDI 6sp
2015 Sportwagon TDI 6sp
LR-JET, Gulfstream 159 |
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ddonnell Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2007 Posts: 373 Location: Sunset Beach
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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CessnaJon wrote: |
So just to confirm:The moog springs fit all 4 corners?Same part #?Does it ride like a Vanagon should? I would like more clearance for my MV but don't want to sacrifice handling or ride quality. |
NO! The moogs are JUST for the front. I had to get Westy rear springs to raise mine. There are a few people that have played around with alternative rear springs (first to come to mind is Alaric.H). The only off the shelf product for rears is the GW springs. That is why people have done the PU spacers/AirLifts/etc...
And anytime you want clearance, you lose handling and ride quality. The van gets top heavy. It was a trip the first time I got into my van after having the fronts done! The ride is completely different (mind you I went from a Carat to a nose-high westy..) _________________ 1990 Vanagon Carat-SOLD
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 V10
1966 Baja "The Beast"
instagram #bajabugproject |
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ddonnell Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2007 Posts: 373 Location: Sunset Beach
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CTB Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2010 Posts: 152
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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What's funny is yours now looks remarkably similar in ride height (esp the rear) to mine as it is now.
Good preview of things to come, eh Davis? Looks like a good change for off-roading for you. Your van looks like it's in great shape. _________________ CTB |
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tozovr Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2009 Posts: 547 Location: York, ME
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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CTB wrote: |
What's funny is yours now looks remarkably similar in ride height (esp the rear) to mine as it is now.
Good preview of things to come, eh Davis? Looks like a good change for off-roading for you. Your van looks like it's in great shape. |
Gosh, what a nasty color scheme that is
Both of you have great looking rigs!
Here's mine so you know I'm joking about the nasty color
http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww230/sinister29er/ringo/_MG_1215_7D_MAY2010_RJ-Liam-Van.jpg _________________ ...like a young Julie Andrews all whacked out on PCP, kinda fun but kinda scary too
'83 1.6TD
DX 5 Speed
"Whistler"
www.sinisterbikes.com |
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ddonnell Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2007 Posts: 373 Location: Sunset Beach
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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CTB wrote: |
What's funny is yours now looks remarkably similar in ride height (esp the rear) to mine as it is now.
Good preview of things to come, eh Davis? Looks like a good change for off-roading for you. Your van looks like it's in great shape. |
Lookin good!
Man that is really really close! I wish I didn't have the side moldings though. IMHO it makes it look too 'showy'. I want a road beast _________________ 1990 Vanagon Carat-SOLD
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 V10
1966 Baja "The Beast"
instagram #bajabugproject |
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snoop Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007 Posts: 351 Location: SW Oregon
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Very nice job dd...Dewey looks great! Please measure the distance from hub center to fender lip on each corner and let us know what you find. Please also keep an eye on those measures as time passes...the degree to which things change is good info to share too.
Much thanks.
Mike _________________ 87 Westy Camper |
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ddonnell Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2007 Posts: 373 Location: Sunset Beach
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Mike- In the morning I'll find all of the original data that I came up with and post it in the first post. I know the fronts settled 1/8" between the time that I had them installed and the time I had the rears installed, but I expected that. (in fact I was expecting more!) And between installs there was over 4,000 miles put on and plenty of off-road miles. (over 100) _________________ 1990 Vanagon Carat-SOLD
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 V10
1966 Baja "The Beast"
instagram #bajabugproject |
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presslab Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 1730 Location: Sonoma County
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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tozovr wrote: |
A gas charged shock won't raise a vehicle unless the charge is significant. You can still compress a gas charged shock by hand. 50 PSI of "charge" in a gas shock could really be anything. You have leverage ratios of suspension to consider etc etc.
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I didn't say 50 PSI (would really be more like 100-400 PSI) but 50 pounds of force. That's a good point about the leverage ratio - in the front it may be more like 0.1" of ride height and 0.08" of shock travel. I did measure the leverage ratios at one point but I forget the exact numbers.
Quote: |
Push a shock in and it initially may be stiff because of a gas charge, but you can maintain a desired compression height with very little effort. |
There is a bit of stiction, yes, but my point is that it will raise the average height of the vehicle. Not a huge amount as I mentioned but it's not nothing. _________________ 1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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presslab Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 1730 Location: Sonoma County
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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ddonnell wrote: |
And anytime you want clearance, you lose handling and ride quality. The van gets top heavy. It was a trip the first time I got into my van after having the fronts done! The ride is completely different (mind you I went from a Carat to a nose-high westy..) |
So do you think you lost handling? Raising the van up changed the roll center, not really good, but the springs are probably a bit stiffer.
I have aftermarket f/r sways on mine, 5660s, and Firestone bags in the rear, and I think it handles pretty good. Doesn't feel like a sports car but it can still take those corners! My buddy always thinks the van's gonna flip over when he rides with me. _________________ 1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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tozovr Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2009 Posts: 547 Location: York, ME
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:40 am Post subject: |
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presslab wrote: |
I have aftermarket f/r sways on mine, |
I have the Addco big bars front and rear...isn't it GREAT!? That combined with the Koni Reds and the van really does handle damn well. _________________ ...like a young Julie Andrews all whacked out on PCP, kinda fun but kinda scary too
'83 1.6TD
DX 5 Speed
"Whistler"
www.sinisterbikes.com |
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