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DIY or pay someone for a pro swap?
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Volksaholic
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

levi wrote:
Volksaholic wrote:
It would be interesting to see some wind tunnel & drag tests, but I'd bet you a couple pitchers you would have to extend the crap on the back out a hell of a long way out to make a noticeable difference at 70mph.

Someone built a buttress on the back of their vanagon, about a 1 or 1 1/2 ft extension, and netted about a 25% gain in mpg at hi-way speeds.
Butt ugly though, and not much of a benefit until you hit 40mph or so.
I've got a pic of it somewhere...

Here again, I would want to see more than just one guy's claim that he improved his mileage by 25%. That's a pretty huge improvement. With a drag coefficient of .44 and a pretty huge frontal area I just find it hard to believe that a 1' or 1.5' extension would make that much difference. I could be wrong... I haven't studied this stuff, but based on what I've read over the years about making cars "slippery", aerodynamics and hydrodynamics of sailboats, and driving vans in various conditions my gut tells me a couple feet is too short to have much affect on the drag behind the van.

I agree that changing the attitude of the van is going to be detrimental; if you're going to load up the back to fill in the drag area a small trailer with a short tongue would be a better strategy (this again is based largely on my "gut" and experience rather than calculations and wind tunnel testing).

Paul
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Volksaholic
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

syncrodoka wrote:
This one?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The other thing I notice in that pic is that he's got a side awning. That's going to increase the drag. I don't know how to quantify that against the gains he's made with the tent on the back, but I wouldn't be surprised to find it offsets quite a bit of the gain.

Paul
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purplepeopleeater
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats stupid looking....years down the road we'll be like the split guys are "stupid hippies and thier pot head mods"

Volksaholic wrote:
syncrodoka wrote:
This one?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The other thing I notice in that pic is that he's got a side awning. That's going to increase the drag. I don't know how to quantify that against the gains he's made with the tent on the back, but I wouldn't be surprised to find it offsets quite a bit of the gain.

Paul
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msewalson
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone know if this has made it to the US market yet. If so how difficult would it be?

http://www.drive.subaru.com/spr08/Spr08_News_Diesel.htm
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dredward
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GardenSurfer wrote:
TEC shop install costs will likely be much more than $8K - http://www.vwtecshop.com/bostig_PRO_INSTALL.html
Their price sheets include new rate engines so I suppose you could lower costs with a used one, however it'll be extra for AC & cruise.

The value of the Bostig is DIY, otherwise you might as well go Subie.

Or in my case 1.8t.... I've talked to many people who've had em all as far as swaps are concerned.....Fact is drive and test before plunking down cash to have someone do it or doing it yer self. Thats the only way to know. I have driven or driven in every swap. Up untill i drove a 1.8t swap(thanx Stefan!!!!) i was not impressed. The 1.8t is the only swap aside from hte svx that offers enough power to move a vehicle the size and weihgt of our vans. Yeah a Porsche can too but it cost alot of $. Fact is the 1.8t put sout comparable numbers to the porsche for a fraction of the $....The 1.8t is also very upgradable as far as powere is concerned. Vwhead has th esame swap in his single cab syncro and i gota tell ya: IT ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!! It feels faster the my wifes 2.slow golf. So much so i'd put $ on it!!!!! I talked to and heard of people being not satisfied wiht every ohter swap but the 1.8t and svx.....I just got back from a trip to Big Sur(my 3rd so far this summer). The thing was as comfortable and fun as driveing my golfs......#'s don't lie and the 1.8t stock and after market have the best #'s I've seen so far.... I am biased however... Take a test spin and make up your own minds.....
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Fritz
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:34 pm    Post subject: 1.8T Swap info? Reply with quote

dredward wrote:
GardenSurfer wrote:
TEC shop install costs will likely be much more than $8K - http://www.vwtecshop.com/bostig_PRO_INSTALL.html
Their price sheets include new rate engines so I suppose you could lower costs with a used one, however it'll be extra for AC & cruise.

The value of the Bostig is DIY, otherwise you might as well go Subie.

Or in my case 1.8t.... I've talked to many people who've had em all as far as swaps are concerned.....Fact is drive and test before plunking down cash to have someone do it or doing it yer self. Thats the only way to know. I have driven or driven in every swap. Up untill i drove a 1.8t swap(thanx Stefan!!!!) i was not impressed. The 1.8t is the only swap aside from hte svx that offers enough power to move a vehicle the size and weihgt of our vans. Yeah a Porsche can too but it cost alot of $. Fact is the 1.8t put sout comparable numbers to the porsche for a fraction of the $....The 1.8t is also very upgradable as far as powere is concerned. Vwhead has th esame swap in his single cab syncro and i gota tell ya: IT ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!! It feels faster the my wifes 2.slow golf. So much so i'd put $ on it!!!!! I talked to and heard of people being not satisfied wiht every ohter swap but the 1.8t and svx.....I just got back from a trip to Big Sur(my 3rd so far this summer). The thing was as comfortable and fun as driveing my golfs......#'s don't lie and the 1.8t stock and after market have the best #'s I've seen so far.... I am biased however... Take a test spin and make up your own minds.....


Where do I start looking for information on the 1.8t swap (i.e.- engine years, components) Any websites out there covering this swap?

Thanks
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dredward
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:45 pm    Post subject: to fitz Reply with quote

Talk to Stefans Auto Haus, Vwhead(on Samba), or me. I'll tell ya hwat i know. Trust me go this route and you'll be happy. My buddy vwhead did this swap too. I finally got a chance to rip around Pacific Grove in his single cab beast!!!!! All i gota say is Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"your face will hurt from smiling so much after that first run"....very true! I just did a 1995 2.2 and the roll on power at 60+ is just awesome. I did mine myself for about $2000(I left out alot of engine rehab parts like new seals for cams etc). If I do it again it will include new seals because my passenger side cam seal started leaking under medium acceleration.Just pick one that looks right for you and do it your self.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having not actually read this entire thread I run the risk of posting a previously stated idea, BUT I'd recomend a shop that specialises in the swap of your chioce, somewhere with a lower shop rate but no tribal knowledge of the issues & gotcha's will cost you more in the long run IMHO.
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Crankey
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GardenSurfer wrote:
TEC shop install costs will likely be much more than $8K - http://www.vwtecshop.com/bostig_PRO_INSTALL.html
Their price sheets include new rate engines so I suppose you could lower costs with a used one, however it'll be extra for AC & cruise.

The value of the Bostig is DIY, otherwise you might as well go Subie.


what is DIY is not an option like for an apartment dweller with only streetside parking ?

who in the Seattle area will install a subie for under the Bostig cost...or Audi...or VR6 ? Fine Tuning on Aurora will do an Audi and list VR6 but I think it'll cost more. I don't know if Small Car will do a Subie for under 8-9k

for someone who's van is their only car, and can't do the work due to space, time tools and experience, I'd like to know what options there are. having a project like this turn into weeks of wrong turns and and a new dead vehicle isn't a good option.
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Volksaholic
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crankey wrote:
for someone who's van is their only car, and can't do the work due to space, time tools and experience, I'd like to know what options there are. having a project like this turn into weeks of wrong turns and and a new dead vehicle isn't a good option.

I think tuning up a 2.1 Wasserboxer and running it into the ground is a perfectly reasonable option, then replacing it with a decent rebuild. I've got some issues with the 2.1 design, but it's not a bad engine and I wouldn't have tossed mine if it had kept running.

If you really need the conversion and don't have space to do it yourself, you could certainly set something up with pro installer and they shouldn't have the van down that long, I wouldn't think. My van was down anyway due to the dead engine, but most of the conversion time was spent prepping the engine and harness and I could have been driving the van during that time. When everything was ready it took me about 10 days, but I was nitpicking over details, dropped the gas tank and resealed it, figured out how I wanted to do my alternator and dash gauge harnesses, and worked a full-time job.

It seems to me that if someone knew the drill, had all the prep work done, and didn't do any elective maintenance and upgrades, they could drop the Wasserboxer one morning and have the Subie running the following day... 2 days max. I can't speak to the other conversions and maybe I'm even being overly optimistic but as I recall it really came together once I had the engine buttoned up and the harness tested.

Paul
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that is sorta what I'm doing, I have a 2.1 in my 85. no real reason to replace it yet. I do maintain it, I shurly don't encourage an early death.
but if I blow a head gasket, I'll be really leaning towards conversion.
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sunseeker52
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject: Why? Reply with quote

It's hard enough getting parts for a stock Vanagon,now go and bastardize one and it's worse! Just go take your stock Vanagon motor to a good performance shop and let them build it up. Way cheaper and you can still go into a auto parts store and they understand what part you need instead of trying to explain how you butchered a VW Vanagon up for a handful of HP. So now what does it do 65 vs 55 on the freeway? WOW!!! If your in that big of a hurry to get through life just go put a gun to your head and your done.
I think it's just a trendy way for some pin head in a VW/Subaru conversion shop to talk you out of your $$$$. Not to mention,lets take some German ingenuity and trade it for some Jap shit. So if I get this,lets sell our Hummer, go buy a syncro,put a Subaru engine in it and I'm the new improved yuppie on the block.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:37 am    Post subject: Why not? Reply with quote

sunseeker52 wrote:
It's hard enough getting parts for a stock Vanagon,now go and bastardize one and it's worse! Just go take your stock Vanagon motor to a good performance shop and let them build it up. Way cheaper and you can still go into a auto parts store and they understand what part you need instead of trying to explain how you butchered a VW Vanagon up for a handful of HP. So now what does it do 65 vs 55 on the freeway? WOW!!! If your in that big of a hurry to get through life just go put a gun to your head and your done.
I think it's just a trendy way for some pin head in a VW/Subaru conversion shop to talk you out of your $$$$. Not to mention,lets take some German ingenuity and trade it for some Jap shit. So if I get this,lets sell our Hummer, go buy a syncro,put a Subaru engine in it and I'm the new improved yuppie on the block.

Woo hoo!

You go BOUY!


Laughing .. There's one in every crowd.
"Jap shit"..
Laughing
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Volksaholic
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Why? Reply with quote

sunseeker52 wrote:
It's hard enough getting parts for a stock Vanagon,now go and bastardize one and it's worse! Just go take your stock Vanagon motor to a good performance shop and let them build it up. Way cheaper and you can still go into a auto parts store and they understand what part you need instead of trying to explain how you butchered a VW Vanagon up for a handful of HP. So now what does it do 65 vs 55 on the freeway? WOW!!! If your in that big of a hurry to get through life just go put a gun to your head and your done.
I think it's just a trendy way for some pin head in a VW/Subaru conversion shop to talk you out of your $$$$. Not to mention,lets take some German ingenuity and trade it for some Jap shit. So if I get this,lets sell our Hummer, go buy a syncro,put a Subaru engine in it and I'm the new improved yuppie on the block.

Laughing
One of the funniest things about this post is that now I can walk into any parts store and say I need x for a 2001 Subaru Forester 2.5L and it's in stock, instead of searching the web only to find parts that are NLA or trying to rehab worn out used parts. I've got nothing against staying stock, but you have obviously formed some very strong opinions without doing any reading on the subject. You most certainly don't have any first hand experience to draw on.

Paul
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just saw this thread. Thumper who is the customer and van? We record all of our calls and go over them later to help write our documentation, so we could find these calls and know exactly what the circumstance is. It is entirely possible we were just f ing around as someone pointed out. If you call and hear 3-4 guys swearing and yelling in the background loudly, it's likely because we're playing a LAN game of Unreal Tournament and someone is getting spanked in capture the flag. It is also entirely possible the mechanic said something we all found funny and we laughed. We certainly aren't dicks the vast majority of the time, and rarely without some reason. One of the best calls I remember was a customer lecturing me about how we should install child safety guards for the crank pulley since the muffler was no longer there in front of it. I laughed. No matter that the muffler gets hots, or that toddlers shouldn't generally be unattended behind running vanagons... no, we need child safety in our kit. Anyhow, let me know who the customer is(is it you?) and we will make sure they're straight and happy. It's our job.

Jim
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dredward
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bostig wrote:
I just saw this thread. Thumper who is the customer and van? We record all of our calls and go over them later to help write our documentation, so we could find these calls and know exactly what the circumstance is. It is entirely possible we were just f ing around as someone pointed out. If you call and hear 3-4 guys swearing and yelling in the background loudly, it's likely because we're playing a LAN game of Unreal Tournament and someone is getting spanked in capture the flag. It is also entirely possible the mechanic said something we all found funny and we laughed. We certainly aren't dicks the vast majority of the time, and rarely without some reason. One of the best calls I remember was a customer lecturing me about how we should install child safety guards for the crank pulley since the muffler was no longer there in front of it. I laughed. No matter that the muffler gets hots, or that toddlers shouldn't generally be unattended behind running vanagons... no, we need child safety in our kit. Anyhow, let me know who the customer is(is it you?) and we will make sure they're straight and happy. It's our job.

Jim

All i gota say is wow!!!!!
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's hard enough getting parts for a stock Vanagon,now go and bastardize one and it's worse! Just go take your stock Vanagon motor to a good performance shop and let them build it up. Way cheaper and you can still go into a auto parts store and they understand what part you need instead of trying to explain how you butchered a VW Vanagon up for a handful of HP.

Nice first post Rolling Eyes
Obviously you don't know as much about conversions as you think that you do.
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Volksaholic
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bostig wrote:
Anyhow, let me know who the customer is(is it you?) and we will make sure they're straight and happy. It's our job.

Applause (I was looking for a simple Thumbs Up but this works- pd)
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Volksaholic
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

syncrodoka wrote:
Quote:
It's hard enough getting parts for a stock Vanagon,now go and bastardize one and it's worse!...

Nice first post Rolling Eyes
Obviously you don't know as much about conversions as you think that you do.

Good catch... I didn't notice it was a first post, but I thought it sounded like someone young and opinionated.

Sunseeker52: Hopefully with time you'll figure out the balance with stating your opinion gracefully. Most folks here do... there are one or two exceptions. Wink We all have different expectations of our vans, and on some levels I can relate to your vitriol. I've always had an extreme distaste of folks who slam their vans & bugs. It's big in the show cars but makes it unusable for anything as far as I'm concerned; but it's their car and suits their purpose so who am I to judge?

Frankly, after seeing the 2.1 WBX and Subie 2.5 sitting side by side I have a hard time thinking why anyone would stay stock. Seeing how nicely a 3.0Liter/6Cyl Subie engine fits without being crowded or shoe-horned I have a hard time envisioning anything but a Subie conversion. Still, the 2.1 engine is decent and leaving it stock is the simpler choice... so for many folks' needs I recommend they leave it alone. There are plenty of other folks have have had very positive experiences with their non-Subie conversions.

It's the best of both worlds, in my opinion; a modern power plant with the utility and feel of the VW Bus. It even makes more sense for the Syncro Westy guys... to this day there's nothing even remotely similar in the van market. I have NO REGRETS with upgrading my van for nearly 2x the HP, fewer fuel lines and coolant hoses to potentially burst, and a modern engine management system. You would do well to at least see what people are doing... it's come a long way from putting Pinto engines into Baja Bugs!

Paul
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