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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10379
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Bern wrote: |
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
I
Bern also makes mention of finding a way to lower engine.
I wonder if he has?
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I had started designing a "low-rise" intake manifold for the vr6, basically taking the lower portion of the intake manifold and remaking one to roll downwards into a log style intake manifold. If you look at it, the VR intake wraps over the top of the motor adding another ~4" of height, and by using the valve cover from a different VR6, you can lose the "breather box" built into the top of the early VR6 valvecovers. Then plumb in a different breather setup, and you're very close to factory deckheight.
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Not to hijack, but this was something I was thinking of for my ABA: use a short (or long?) mani. (new it's $$ relative to the benefits gained IMO) Regardless, that cross flow intake sure takes up room up top!
Something like this (I should just get off my ass and try AL welding on my MIG.... come up with some kind of Franknstein mani  )
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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VR6 vanagon
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2008
Posts: 93
Location: New Port Richey Florida
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm gonna get on this project, I think that if I simply raise the entire rear seat the height of my new deck lid, the bed will lay flat and then there will basically be no cargo room lost. It seems like it shouldn't be hard at all to raise the rear seat a couple inches. I'm gonna figure it out and do it. |
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James 93SLC
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 937
Location: NE Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Bern wrote: |
Since I'm not on the samba much anymore, if anyone wants some specifics, feel free to email me.
I sold my VR6 van a couple months ago, ironically right before I was going to launch into the project to fit the engine under the factory decklid (or at the very least a much less raised one).
I had started designing a "low-rise" intake manifold for the vr6, basically taking the lower portion of the intake manifold and remaking one to roll downwards into a log style intake manifold. If you look at it, the VR intake wraps over the top of the motor adding another ~4" of height, and by using the valve cover from a different VR6, you can lose the "breather box" built into the top of the early VR6 valvecovers. Then plumb in a different breather setup, and you're very close to factory deckheight.
Glad to see alot of people out there getting more adventuresome with their vanagon motorswaps.
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As you point out, it's the valve cover (not the manifold) that limits the height on the VR6, but even the later valve cover won't solve the issue entirely by eliminating that box for the breather. At the other end you have an equally high raised section on the valve cover to clear the cam sprockets. This ends up being located near the backside of the engine cover opening and probably would require the trans to be dropped down lower.
What I would be most afraid of (at least on a 2WD) is that getting the engine under the stock cover will put the oil pan very close to the ground. Shortening the oil pan is a problem since the VR6 uses a cast pickup on the oil pump that can't really be shortened. There is a chance that using a 3.2 VR6 oil pump (which is shorter) might be an option, but that's adding some $$$.
I just picked up a KEP VR6 adapter in the classifieds for a great price. So mark me down as another VR6 project in the works. I'm going to shoot for a slightly raised deck (no more than 5 inches) and no cutting into the bulkhead area. I think relocating the coilpack on the end of the VR6 and maybe shifting the trans towards the rear will allow me to fit it in there.
_________________
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91 Vanagon Carat
93 Corrado SLC
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Photos: http://picasaweb.google.com/slc.corrado
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tencentlife "Sometimes a pooka is a problem and sometimes it's just a pooka" |
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Bern
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2004
Posts: 152
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| James 93SLC wrote: |
| Bern wrote: |
Since I'm not on the samba much anymore, if anyone wants some specifics, feel free to email me.
I sold my VR6 van a couple months ago, ironically right before I was going to launch into the project to fit the engine under the factory decklid (or at the very least a much less raised one).
I had started designing a "low-rise" intake manifold for the vr6, basically taking the lower portion of the intake manifold and remaking one to roll downwards into a log style intake manifold. If you look at it, the VR intake wraps over the top of the motor adding another ~4" of height, and by using the valve cover from a different VR6, you can lose the "breather box" built into the top of the early VR6 valvecovers. Then plumb in a different breather setup, and you're very close to factory deckheight.
Glad to see alot of people out there getting more adventuresome with their vanagon motorswaps.
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As you point out, it's the valve cover (not the manifold) that limits the height on the VR6, but even the later valve cover won't solve the issue entirely by eliminating that box for the breather. At the other end you have an equally high raised section on the valve cover to clear the cam sprockets. This ends up being located near the backside of the engine cover opening and probably would require the trans to be dropped down lower.
What I would be most afraid of (at least on a 2WD) is that getting the engine under the stock cover will put the oil pan very close to the ground. Shortening the oil pan is a problem since the VR6 uses a cast pickup on the oil pump that can't really be shortened. There is a chance that using a 3.2 VR6 oil pump (which is shorter) might be an option, but that's adding some $$$.
I just picked up a KEP VR6 adapter in the classifieds for a great price. So mark me down as another VR6 project in the works. I'm going to shoot for a slightly raised deck (no more than 5 inches) and no cutting into the bulkhead area. I think relocating the coilpack on the end of the VR6 and maybe shifting the trans towards the rear will allow me to fit it in there. |
While the cam sprockets to create a "high spot", there is another 1/2"-1" to lose if you build cut the valve cover down and rework it to bring it close to those sprockets. The main thing in tackling the rest of the "highpoints" would bring 99% of the issue down to a more manageable area instead of having to build a large "engine-size" raise cover, I think having a little "bubble" of raised lid would be far more acceptable than the whole thing.
I think you might want to reconsider trying to fit it in there without at least shaving the firewall, you can move the coilpack (i used a distro vr6 so i didn't really have that option) but you still have alot of water distribution pipes/t-stat/etc exiting/entering over there. And with how much that stuff likes to leak, it might be nice to be able to have easy access to it. Unless you're planning on remaking all these water necks/flanges/transfer pipe stuff, which is a fairly big undertaking when you could just cut the firewall out. Let us know how it work out either way you decide to go.
As far as lowering the engine more goes, the mk4 alum oil pans and oil pickup tubes can gain you another ~3/4" of clearance, or you can shave the metal pan and pickup tube, then do an external oil cooler or sump somewhere so you don't lose oil volume since the VR already keeps that stuff pretty damn hot when run hard. I had exceptional ground clearance (even considering I had a very lifted/tall 2wd van). I could crawl from one end to the other without a tight fit (and I'm a big guy). I'm confident I could have just lowered the motor a little more and wouldn't have had an issue. Besides, skid plates aren't hard to make either.
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VR6 Vanagon. Yup, it vrooms and stuff. |
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James 93SLC
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 937
Location: NE Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Bern wrote: |
| I think you might want to reconsider trying to fit it in there without at least shaving the firewall, you can move the coilpack (i used a distro vr6 so i didn't really have that option) but you still have alot of water distribution pipes/t-stat/etc exiting/entering over there. And with how much that stuff likes to leak, it might be nice to be able to have easy access to it. Unless you're planning on remaking all these water necks/flanges/transfer pipe stuff, which is a fairly big undertaking when you could just cut the firewall out. Let us know how it work out either way you decide to go. |
It's really the lip of the engine bay opening, where the cover sits, that I want to avoid cutting into. I figured cutting some of the bulkhead below that area might be needed to clear the thermo housing. Oh and all that stuff will be brand new when it goes in. I've dealt with my share of old VW plastic cooling parts!
I'm chomping at the bit to do this, but time and $$ are just not in the cards right at the moment. It's going to kill me waiting till next Summer to start this.
_________________
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91 Vanagon Carat
93 Corrado SLC
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Photos: http://picasaweb.google.com/slc.corrado
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tencentlife "Sometimes a pooka is a problem and sometimes it's just a pooka" |
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high revin
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2010
Posts: 8
Location: UNITED KINGDOM
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hi there, i am currently doing a 2.9 vr6 conversion for my brother in law on his T25. Loads of good ideas on here!! I have just over hauled the engine and removed the loom/ relay plate from donor car and now looking at ideas for engines mounts
Before
After
Any mount pics would be greatly appreciated cheers  |
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Bern
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2004
Posts: 152
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Hey there.
I sold my VR6 van awhile back, so I can't go take pictures, but to give you an idea of what I did for my mounts if you haven't gotten it handled yet:
I dropped the motor in through the top and mated it with the trans, then I adjusted it to it wasn't "skewed" improperly, basically looking at the front of the trans nose to make sure it wasn't tilted one way or the other.
After that I made sure the plane of the motor/trans (from front to back of vehicle) was parallel to the ground. I know its possible if you play with this angle you can get the motor to tuck further and further into the engine bay, but this really should be avoided to insure proper lubrication to both the motor and the trans. Sure a little angle here and there is probably ok, but the motor/trans sitting at a drastic angle will leave the lubricants not where the factory intended them for any long amount of time.
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VR6 Vanagon. Yup, it vrooms and stuff. |
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high revin
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Joined: November 22, 2010
Posts: 8
Location: UNITED KINGDOM
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SyncroGhia
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Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2458
Location: Highnam, UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Looking smart in black.
Just out of interest, how much more would you have to drop the motor down to get it under the stock lid?
MG
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fastwagens
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 1028
Location: Michigan (The other west coast)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| IIRC the vr conversion stuck up about 4 inches and the bottem of my factory support engine support bar was level with the bottem of the vr oil pan. this way i keep factory ground clearence. |
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high revin
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2010
Posts: 8
Location: UNITED KINGDOM
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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would have to drop down a good 4 inches, but the engine is very tall and would be extremely low to the ground , leaving the gearbox at the wrong angle also. I had a day off work today so had a go at the rear mount.
I have used the original cross member which is solid steel and seems very strong and made a small plate about 8mm thick that bolts on to where the power steering bracket originally was. then welded a length of box section diagonally downwards to some angle section using one of the original t3 mounts. I have left the box section long so may double up the mount at the bottom of this with another piece of angle and another mount below for extra strength.
I had to move the original cross member back a couple of inches and also lower it 1 and half inches. Didnt get time for any photos today and going away for week end but will try to post some next week |
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high revin
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2010
Posts: 8
Location: UNITED KINGDOM
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Hi all, it has been a while sorry !! the van is finally alive and had its first maiden voyage today back from the custom exhaust people in Bridport, and it drove like a dream very happy
here are the latest pics and youtube video of exhaust etc
[youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d85_6gsgs0 |
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high revin
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Joined: November 22, 2010
Posts: 8
Location: UNITED KINGDOM
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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high revin
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2010
Posts: 8
Location: UNITED KINGDOM
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:34 pm Post subject: VR6 TO T25 CONVERSION IS ALIVE :) |
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Its finally finished now to run it in here are my final pics, Happy days !!
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James 93SLC
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Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 937
Location: NE Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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high revin -
Looks great! I like the idea of mounting the coilpack on the firewall. Looks like you still had to cut into the firewall/floor? I'm hoping that I can get way with not cutting into that lip where the original engine lid sits. Think it can be done?
Can you get some good shots of your engine carrier and mounts?
Would also love to see some exhaust shots.
[Edit]: Just saw the video...NICE exhaust!
I plan on starting my VR6 install in about two months.
Thanks!
_________________
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91 Vanagon Carat
93 Corrado SLC
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Photos: http://picasaweb.google.com/slc.corrado
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tencentlife "Sometimes a pooka is a problem and sometimes it's just a pooka" |
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fastwagens
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 1028
Location: Michigan (The other west coast)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think you can get get away with out cutting unless you are a syncro. |
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fastwagens
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 1028
Location: Michigan (The other west coast)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: VR6 TO T25 CONVERSION IS ALIVE :) |
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| high revin wrote: |
Its finally finished now to run it in here are my final pics, Happy days !!
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Nice wrap around seating. |
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James 93SLC
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 937
Location: NE Ohio
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| fastwagens wrote: |
| I don't think you can get get away with out cutting unless you are a syncro. |
I think I have an idea that will keep it to a minimum.
My diff housing (I have an automatic) mates to the engine on the engine side of the firewall. The only things on the VR6 that protrude where the trans meet is the coilpack, thermostat housing and the timing chain cover. As high revin demonstrated, you can easily relocate the coilpack. The thermostat housing is lower and should be under the decklid and require only trimming the the firewall. That leaves just the timing cover that would come in contact with the decklid rim. I'm hoping that shifting the trans about 1 or 1.5" backwards with a spacer will give me the necessary space. Or not
Won't really know until I get an engine and trans mated and line things up.
_________________
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91 Vanagon Carat
93 Corrado SLC
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Photos: http://picasaweb.google.com/slc.corrado
--------------------------------------------------------
tencentlife "Sometimes a pooka is a problem and sometimes it's just a pooka" |
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high revin
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2010
Posts: 8
Location: UNITED KINGDOM
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:15 am Post subject: |
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yeah sounds like you may get away with out cutting yours then if you use a different box mine is the 4 speed wwo box, i tried my hardest to cut as little as possible the main problem is the thermostat housing!! with out removing the centre part of the fire wall would make plumbing in nearly impossible as would have no room to attach the pipes etc. i did not cut hardly any of the original metal engine cover area tho only the fire wall so much less than others i have seen .
Last edited by high revin on Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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high revin
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2010
Posts: 8
Location: UNITED KINGDOM
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| sorry didnt read your post correctly yes you should be able to get away without cutting the original lid cover as long as you mount the coil pack else where etc i did cut a very small amount away which made it a bit easier |
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