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John Moxon 
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Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 13958
Location: Southampton U.K.
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32634
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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gregmporter
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2008
Posts: 531
Location: Colorado
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 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:50 am Post subject: |
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Just a quick piece of advice before you weld on the skin. Put a straight edge down the length of it and make sure it's straight. Mine were bowed about 1/2" and I didn't notice it until the doors went on... It was a PITA to cut bend and weld it back after it was in place. If I would have caught it before install, I would have cut it in two like the factory and it would have been easy to straighten out.
_________________
You Tube Channel w/vids of the car's progress
http://www.youtube.com/user/gregmporter
1974 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet
1964 356C Coupe (in progress) |
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cool karmann collected
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:50 am Post subject: |
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You read my mind. I did indeed remove the brace and temporarily re-hang the door before finally welding in the rocker. If I get a chance tonight I'll upload another pile of pics.
Ant |
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cool karmann collected
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Back again..
Well the next couple of weekends saw me start to clean up the areas to be welded and repair the section of the floorpan edge. Another thing that slowed me down was the discovery of yet more rust in the under back seat area towards where the heater pipe enters the car. This had corroded from the inside as It's double skinned and condensation had obviously run down here over the years and was starting to blister both inside and outside the car. I was a bit concerned as any further inwards and I'd be struggling to fix it with the body on the pan, in the end I managed to get a couple of new layers of metal in there but not before I'd removed the torsion bar cover and exploded a new slitting disc when it dug in as I wrestled with the grinder in such an enclosed space.
The piece of metal thats flapping in the breeze will be dealt with later when I close off the end of the channel. Other work included discing off as much of the transit primer as was accessible on the repair panels, you'll notice that they are now silver for the most part which is a combination of zinc weld-thru primer on the edges and rust preventative paint on the exposed bits. I sprayed zinc primer into the box section of the channel to give it a chance of lasting as long as possible. I noticed that it was difficult to get the channel in postion without dislodging the 'pan seal as the floorpan doesn't have that much flex in it, so I decided to contact-glue the seal to the floorpan to ensure it stays in place ( and to keep water out)
I now had to spend some time reshaping the oval hole in the new channel to accept the 'Y' pipe under the seat, this meant just flaring the metal enough to allow the oval pipe to enter the channel but not be too gappy, whilst allowing the Y to align with its previously drilled-out spotwelds on the body. It should be noted that the Y was juggled into position as the channel was loaded for the final time, it can't be loaded once the channel is in the car so don't think you can do it afterwards, it's integral to getting the channel lined up!
With everything ready for a final fit, I applied a good coat of rubberised sealant onto the top of the floorpan seal and loaded the channel into position with all the bolts in place but not yet fully tightened. At the front end, I used a G-clamp to pull the door pillar back into alignment and to sandwich the channel end plate between the pillar and dogleg. Not shown in the photos is a small 'L' shaped section I had to weld to the dogleg to replace the original spot-welded lip that was a bit chewed where I'd been at it with a chisel previously.
With the front clamped up, I tightened all the floorpan bolts underneath and prepared the welder...
I have read in a couple of places that some people choose to weld the rocker to the channel off the car and presumably load the whole assembly as one big section, this may apply if doing a body off resto, but I chose to weld the channel to the body first and then assess the fit of the rocker panel relative to the door because once the mig starts to flow, it's past the point of no return. The channel can't really be adjusted that much as it's position is determined by the adjoining bodywork (and the floorpan bolts) but the rocker is slightly more positionable, even just a few milimeters, which could be important when setting the door gap.
That's all for now, dinners ready! |
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Hookset
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 8
Location: North East Texas
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Complete Inspiration - Bookmarked |
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cool karmann collected
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Back with some pics...
At this stage the channel part is in and so is the Y piece under the seat. I did have the rocker in place as I did most of the welds on the channel and could still slide it in and out afterwards. Next step was to prep the rocker for welding, this entailed punching a line of holes along the inner edge and along the bottom lip, I kept the spacing at about what the factory appeared to use, around an inch. The hole punch also doubles as a joggler if you spin the head round, this is one tool I definately recommend buying as it punches a nice clean hole with no burr on the back, much easier than a drill.
with the rocker clamped to the channel in a relaxed position, i.e. basically wherever it sits, I took a measurement though the center line of the trim holes on the body down to the edge of the door step and took a similar measure from the trim to the bottom of the door itself and compared the two. This indicated that I would have virtually no gap between the bottom of the door and the rocker (if I welded it in it's current position) compared with about a 4 or 5 mm gap previously (and compared with the other side of the car) Hmmm.....
I tried moving the rocker down as much as it would go along the bottom lip and re-clamped it, took another measurement but it still seemed as though the gap would be very small (about 1.5 to 2mm) plus it was hard to tell if the rocker would even be flush with the door in it's current position. I quickly decided that there was only one thing for it, remove the brace, hoping that the welds I'd done so far around the Y and the door pillar would be enough to hold the body in shape whilst I trial fitted the door.
I wasn't sure what to expect when I undid the screws holding the end of the brace to the B pillar but as it turns out there was no movement at all when they were out, in fact the brace was slightly tight in the gap and needed a good tug to remove. I wrestled the door onto it's hinges (Note: very heavy on your own, have a helper!) and tightened a few screw and tried to close the door - It wouldn't - the rubber 'wedge' that locates in the chrome guide on the door pillar was jamming up indicating that the lower portion of the B pillar had moved slightly towards the front of the car, not surprising considering the clubbing i'd given that region getting the old channel out, plus the fact that any stresses present in the body would have relaxed too. Well, all it needed was a few taps with a rawhide mallet to get things looking a bit more agreeable again. What this reveals at the end of the day is that is was a good idea to;
a) Brace the door gap, although if I did it again, I'd grow a spur off the brace to locate on the B pillar lower down where the wedge goes
b) trial fit the door before making the final weld between the base of the B pillar and the rocker panel (and the rocker to channel)! there's only one way to find out if things are going well.
c)not assume everything will work out OK, if I had welded everything in place just relying on the brace, the door wouldn't have closed - grinding off fresh welds is depressing (and difficult)
With the door on, the gap between it and rocker looked good, definately closer than before but no interference anywhere. At this time I also checked there would be enough clearance for the ally threshhold plate under the door too.
I left the door in place whilst doing the plug welds along the top and bottom of the rocker to channel, the final weld(s) being the base of the B pillar to the rocker, pics show post clean-up with a coat of seam sealer. |
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gregmporter
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2008
Posts: 531
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Nice going! Taking the time to hang the doors is totally worth it. I learned that after cutting a bunch of welds apart. You are doing an incredible job documenting a process that is very challenging.
_________________
You Tube Channel w/vids of the car's progress
http://www.youtube.com/user/gregmporter
1974 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet
1964 356C Coupe (in progress) |
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lnrbry
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2010
Posts: 69
Location: Fort Bragg, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Excellent job! I had always looked for a VW whilst in England (stationed at heyford/ fairford/ welford with the US Air Force. BTW are the peace women still at greenham common?) but they all were either too expensive or were deathtraps of rust that the MOT man would laugh at me for even bringing in.
One question I have is about the mud plates. Did you plan on taking yours out/ replacing the seal? Could you get a couple pics if you do (or even how they are mounted/ bolted in?) Glad to see that you were able to get the body panels installed and look forward to seeing the final fitting/ welding of the outer sills. I am also VERY glad that you didn't just hammerite them back into shape and sell it on to someone else (I ended up with a lambretta that had been hammerite black'ed and still wake up at night covered in sweat from trying to get it all put right.) While that stuff would form enough layers to get something past the MOT, it was hell to get off to actually fix the problems. |
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cool karmann collected
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the comments! I know it can be hard to get details of tricky jobs like this so I thought I'd try to fill the void a bit for people. I imagine quite a lot of Ghias end up scrapped when their owners discover extensive rust (there's always plenty of stripped down 'projects' for auction here in the UK) and if these pics and tips help some more get saved then that's got to be a good thing. I drove mine daily for four years and barely saw a beetle let alone another ghia on the road (one, I think)
The Greenham women have been gone for a while now i think, I'm sure they were on the news a few years back when they packed up the camp. Interestingly I used to live in Lechlade near the Fairford base, and occasionally we'd go to the air show there in the summer, we passed through Fort Bragg too on our way up to the Nor Cal Redwoods a couple of years back. There's still more old VW's on the roads up there than you'll ever see here in rust-central!
As for the mud plates, I have a new seal but I don't think I'll be removing the plate to fit it. To be honest I haven't looked too closely at the front end yet but rest assured I'll post whatever I do here, I reckon I'll get to the front in about a month, assuming the temperature gets above freezing so I can actually get out there and work on the thing.
On with the show...
I jumped ahead for the next bit, basically because rebuilding the area around the torsion access hole without trial fitting the outer quarter panel first is risky in my opinion. Espcially as the inner repair panel for that region is not as well formed as the others. So, I set about trimming and offering up the outer quarter panel to use as a guide for the inner metalwork.
You may have noticed that I cut the old panel out through the center of the trim line, simply because this seemed like a good place to 'hide' the join. I've no objection to using filler to cover welds, it's just that I'm not very good at 'working' it afterwards, I tend to end up with wavy results so this seemed like a way to minimize the amount of filling I'd have to do. I did have to extend the repair above the trim line near the wheel arch as the rust had made some serious upward progress!
There's no magic formula to making this panel fit, it's just a case of lots of measurements before any cutting begins. In fact the only cutting in this case was along the top edge, I trimmed the panel about 1/2" beyond the existing bodywork to allow me to joggle the edge of the repair panel and tuck it behind for welding. I know some people like to create practically invisible repairs (when viewed on the inside) by butt welding the edges together, and thats great, but I'm happy to do it this way as there's less risk of warpage and it can't be seen anyway once the interior trim panel is on. One thing that does require patience is trimming excess metal from the panel where it meets the rocker. I gently 'stroked' it with a discer until the panel was flush with the rocker, the trick is to grind off just enough so the the panel matches the curve of the rocker with no gaps and the two are flush with one another, this should mean a small lip is left on the panel just like the factory had.
The fit of this panel is very good, it's almost dimensionally exactly the same as original and has no problem lining up with the repro rocker either. The only bit that stops it being a 10 out of 10 is that the wheel arch lip is thinner than the original, I don't know why, so I will have to spend some time blending the lip to the original bodywork, probably with a tapered strip of metal welded to the edge.
The fit of the panel isn't perfect at this stage, but it's close enough to start on closing off the channel and fixing the inner torsion cover panel.
Ant |
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anthracitedub
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Joined: June 20, 2007
Posts: 3241
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Your doing a great job man…and extra thanks for the documentation…your correct in your thoughts, this will certainly help save some Ghias out there. With the good photos and text, this thread is no doubt the go to source for rocker/heater channel repairs…again, hats off for your efforts. |
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cool karmann collected
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Holiday update!
OK, after getting the outer quarter panel in place I started to look at replacing the missing metal around the end of the channel. Obviously the majority of this is the inner repair section seen below, and I have to say that this piece is the weak link quality-wise out of the repair metal I've fitted so far. The kindest way to describe it is 'approximate' in it's dimensions. Basically it's not that well formed and I don't think the manufacturer even had a lot of confidence in it as it had slit top and bottom to presumably allow it to be 'adjusted' heavily on install. Hmmm....
Well in the end I quickly decided to just cut what I needed from it to mate up the solid bits of the existing bodywork with the lip of the outer panel rather than try to intall it wholesale as it clearly wasn't going to fit in one piece and life's too short to spend hours trying to re-shape something that will never be seen. I wouldn't mind so much except it cost the same as the very nicely pressed outer panel which uses about three times the metal and actually fits! OK rant over, but seriously, I would think twice before buying this part if you have any moderate metal shaping skills at all, true the torsion hole is a bit awkward to re-produce but on this panel it's in the wrong place anyway! (more on that little gem later)
So, got there in the end, the panel didn't replace all the rust I'd cut out so a few home-grown patches here and there also but starting to feel like the end is in sight for the welding now, getting the rear finished will be a real boost as I'll start to look like a whole car again.
More soon
Ant |
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Paul Wright
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Joined: November 15, 2004
Posts: 425
Location: Memphis, Ind
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| Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting these pics. This is the exact section that I have been working on in the last severals days...and what got me so depressed!!
I have the exact repair panels that you have. The biggest problem for me is that I have no inner fender to reference to.
I now realize that I need to get the new rockers installed first then worry more about the rear section.
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I may not be good.......but I sure am slow!! |
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72Ghia
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Joined: November 11, 2007
Posts: 1253
Location: Baltimore Maryland
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Paul Wright
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Joined: November 15, 2004
Posts: 425
Location: Memphis, Ind
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| Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Did you take pics of when you did that??
I have a feeling this is going to happen to me.
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I may not be good.......but I sure am slow!! |
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72Ghia
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Joined: November 11, 2007
Posts: 1253
Location: Baltimore Maryland
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cool karmann collected
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Nice resto you've got going there Bill, I wish I'd read it before doing the inner torsion repair! Well the outer panel is on now although the two holes aren't in perfect alignment, I thought as long as they were close I'd be able to get the torsion bar out if I had to, but I didn't consider the fitment of the torsion cover plate before I welded everything up. I think I'll end up with some custom seal/spacer affair when the time comes.
More progress soon.
Ant |
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35mastr
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Joined: December 31, 2010
Posts: 61
Location: Newark,California
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Wow,What excellent information in this post on the heater tubes and the rocker repair. Always like a post that has lots of pictures that show everything that you need to work around. |
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72Ghia
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Joined: November 11, 2007
Posts: 1253
Location: Baltimore Maryland
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72Ghia
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Joined: November 11, 2007
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Location: Baltimore Maryland
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