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schoonerman
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Joined: May 14, 2008
Posts: 244
Location: vancouver
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 Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:28 pm Post subject: is ethonol gas ok for wbx engines???? |
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I just filled up with an ethonol mix gas 87 westy to give her a better chance to pass Air Care (smog)
She was running fine for around 40km then started to hic-up. I stopped checked around..no problems. drove up a local mountain and went skiing.
Came down still running ok, and took her to the local testing center...past with flying colours.. Ya Hoooo!!!!
Did a search but didnt find much on the subject
Thanks |
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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E-85 won't work --
All or most of the regular gas you buy today has at least 10% Eythenol in it--unless your running BP premium.
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austinado16
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Joined: January 09, 2009
Posts: 178
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:33 am Post subject: |
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Your catalytic converter does the job of cleaning up the exhaust emmissions. I wouldn't run any corn blend fuel......you get less power from it, and less mpg's as a result. It's bad enough running the 10% or whatever is in regular fuel.
Run premium unless you're up in the mountains, and run a can of injection cleaner through 'er every couple of months.
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4 little pistons hammering themselves silly
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1970 Austin America
1966 Mercedes 250SE Coupe (sunroof & 4 on the floor)
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VisPacem
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Joined: July 15, 2007
Posts: 1143
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: Re: is ethonol gas ok for wbx engines???? |
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| schoonerman wrote: |
I just filled up with an ethonol mix gas 87 westy to give her a better chance to pass Air Care (smog)
She was running fine for around 40km then started to hic-up. I stopped checked around..no problems. drove up a local mountain and went skiing.
Came down still running ok, and took her to the local testing center...past with flying colours.. Ya Hoooo!!!!
Did a search but didnt find much on the subject
Thanks |
Now, either I do not read well and am confused or....?
Ethanol ok for WBX ? Well it would seem that answer is in the body of the post... at least to me.
It worked didn't it?
Next post:
It will not work
Next post:
The catalytic converter etc.....
So then inflating tyres with nitrogen and installing two additional batteries under the rear seat bla bla bla, will it work ?
Now seriously to stay on topic or kind of, will E-85 work in a Subaru 2.2, and yes it a Vanagon question as said Subaru 2.2 IS in a Vanagon?
Thanks
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LG aka VisPacemPB, *The* party Pooper
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firepilot
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2009
Posts: 273
Location: Boise
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Run premium unless you're up in the mountains, |
Why would you need premium in stock wbx engine?
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86 Westy Syncro |
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schoonerman
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2008
Posts: 244
Location: vancouver
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the answers....
I thought that I had read someplace that ethonol was not too good but couldn't find anything in the search, hence my question to the forum.
Yes, she passed, but because of the engine missing, I'm concerned about any long term issues etc.
I will certainly fill up with my usual mid grade fuel from now on.
Thanks again |
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airkooledchris
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Joined: January 25, 2005
Posts: 2713
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:45 am Post subject: |
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here in California they add at least 6% ethanol to all gasoline, ever since they banned MTBE as an additive.
my aircooled vanagon owners manual even makes mention of Gasohol and says that its probably safe as long as it isn't any stronger than 10% Ethanol...
however, they sway switch back asap if you see any of the following:
- Deterioration of drivability and performance
- Generation of vapor lock and hot start problems, especially at high altitude or at high temperatures
- Engine malfuntion or stalling |
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Williamtaylor33
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Joined: September 07, 2007
Posts: 1545
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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E85 wont work in a stock vanagon.
I know you can run E85 with the bostig conversion, but you would need to reflash the ecu first with a tune that is E85 compatible.
When running E85 you have more power but less fuel mileage. But the price can be up too 20% cheaper...making up for the lost mileage.
I'm sure some of the other conversions offer this as well.
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firepilot
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Joined: February 10, 2009
Posts: 273
Location: Boise
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Williamtaylor33 wrote: |
E85 wont work in a stock vanagon.
I know you can run E85 with the bostig conversion, but you would need to reflash the ecu first with a tune that is E85 compatible.
When running E85 you have more power but less fuel mileage. But the price can be up too 20% cheaper...making up for the lost mileage.
I'm sure some of the other conversions offer this as well. |
20% cheaper will not make up for the lost mileage, you really need it to be a third cheaper to make up for the lost energy by volume of E85
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morymob
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Joined: November 09, 2007
Posts: 4683
Location: east-tn
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| I've run whatever came out of the regular pump hose for years without any problems,my only requirement=it lights with a match. |
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hiram6
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Joined: September 29, 2006
Posts: 1880
Location: Beautiful South
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| morymob wrote: |
| I've run whatever came out of the regular pump hose for years without any problems,my only requirement=it lights with a match. |
Note to self, don't fill up at the same filling station as morymob.
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Williamtaylor33
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Joined: September 07, 2007
Posts: 1545
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| firepilot wrote: |
| Williamtaylor33 wrote: |
E85 wont work in a stock vanagon.
I know you can run E85 with the bostig conversion, but you would need to reflash the ecu first with a tune that is E85 compatible.
When running E85 you have more power but less fuel mileage. But the price can be up too 20% cheaper...making up for the lost mileage.
I'm sure some of the other conversions offer this as well. |
20% cheaper will not make up for the lost mileage, you really need it to be a third cheaper to make up for the lost energy by volume of E85 |
Those running E85 in their Zetec equipped vanagon typically see a 14% loss in fuel economy.
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89 Bostig powered syncro westy |
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buildyourown
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Joined: March 01, 2009
Posts: 1668
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Ethanol is added to everyday gas as an octane booster. Yes, you loose a little energy, but compared to the other boosters (lead and MTBE) it's a much better choice for everybody.
E85 is a scam and everybody who can 3rd grade math knows it. |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10379
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:40 am Post subject: |
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I ran Mowhawk ethanol blend on my air cooled and am now running it on my "new" Jetta engine. No issues. FWIW, on the lowest octane fuel, Mowhawk/Husky pumps specify something like "may contain up to 10% ethanol" or "contains up to 10%...."
Congrats on your Air Care pass!
Neil. (who also passed with flying colours)
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greenbus pilot
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Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 1285
Location: Wisconsin: Rustbelt, USA baby!!
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| buildyourown wrote: |
Ethanol is added to everyday gas as an octane booster. Yes, you loose a little energy, but compared to the other boosters (lead and MTBE) it's a much better choice for everybody.
E85 is a scam and everybody who can 3rd grade math knows it. |
I agree. It takes MORE oil to produce a given gallon than it makes. AND, right now, its only about 20cents less per gallon- with a lower return on mileage,why bother? I won't even bring up the cost of cornflakes, etc. Gotta love gubernment subsidies- YOUR tax dollars, hard at work. Do you smell the pork?
But to keep this thread on topic, what else CAN you buy today that does not contain ethanol? I cannot find a pump which does NOT say "contains 10% ethanol".
Works OK in all my cars, but really, think about it - you're only getting 90% of the gasoline you are paying for..... 
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Sent from a white van down the street. |
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tencentlife
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| buildyourown wrote: |
| Ethanol is added to everyday gas as an octane booster. Yes, you loose a little energy, but compared to the other boosters (lead and MTBE) it's a much better choice for everybody. |
It happens to raise effective octane, but that isn't the intended purpose. It is added as an oxygenator, which helps lower NOx formation to lessen ground-level smog. Oxygenation was also the intended purpose of MTBE, so clearly ETOH is the better solution because it's not a persistent pollutant in and of itself.
Lead is a whole other story, but we should all be glad that it's not in use in motor fuels anymore.
| greenbus pilot wrote: |
I cannot find a pump which does NOT say "contains 10% ethanol".
Works OK in all my cars, but really, think about it - you're only getting 90% of the gasoline you are paying for.... |
If you are using 10% ETOH, it's true you're getting ten percent less gasoline, but who cares about that when what you're after is caloric energy. On that account you're coming in about 3.5% short with a 10% ETOH blend. Not that bad on balance, when it has such beneficial effects in reducing smog.
| buildyourown wrote: |
| E85 is a scam and everybody who can 3rd grade math knows it. |
E85 as produced today is a political sop to the farm states, with a non-net-positive output calories-wise, due to the heavy petroleum inputs to grow corn at industrial scale. Not so great in the short term. Probably almost as bad as that are the subsidies offered to businesses and state governments for the added cost to buy "flex-fuel" vehicles for their fleets in order to increase the market for ETOH, but those vehicles are almost never fueled with E85 in practice.
But taking the longrun outlook, in my view it's still a benefit, because we're creating the distribution and sales infrastructure needed to bring more sustainable supplies of ETOH to market. Other fermentation processes show promise and I just read the other day that a large cellulosic ETOH plant will soon be bringing substantial quantities to market. Once a carbon trading system is in place, high-petro input processes like corn ETOH will be less cost-competitve with lower carbon intensive ones, and eventualy corn ETOH will be phased out. But without subsidy to lay in the groundwork it's hard to see how the more carbon-neutral types would ever find their way into our fuel tanks.
The impact on food supply is a red herring; the corn diverted to ETOH we only eat otherwise in the form of lot-fed beef and high-fructose corn syrup. If you want to understand where all that the corn ends up, see the documentary "King Corn". Diverting more of it to fuel production means less of the surpluses available that have resulted in the massive market for unhealthy corn sweeteners, which saturate so many processed food products today and greatly contribute to the diminishment of public health. Making corn sweeteners more expensive could only be a good thing for us all. I love my hamburgers, too, but the beef we buy is the kind of food we would also be better off eating less of.
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greenbus pilot
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Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 1285
Location: Wisconsin: Rustbelt, USA baby!!
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
| buildyourown wrote: |
| Ethanol is added to everyday gas as an octane booster. Yes, you loose a little energy, but compared to the other boosters (lead and MTBE) it's a much better choice for everybody. |
It happens to raise effective octane, but that isn't the intended purpose. It is added as an oxygenator, which helps lower NOx formation to lessen ground-level smog. Oxygenation was also the intended purpose of MTBE, so clearly ETOH is the better solution because it's not a persistent pollutant in and of itself.
Lead is a whole other story, but we should all be glad that it's not in use in motor fuels anymore.
| greenbus pilot wrote: |
I cannot find a pump which does NOT say "contains 10% ethanol".
Works OK in all my cars, but really, think about it - you're only getting 90% of the gasoline you are paying for.... |
If you are using 10% ETOH, it's true you're getting ten percent less gasoline, but who cares about that when what you're after is caloric energy. On that account you're coming in about 3.5% short with a 10% ETOH blend. Not that bad on balance, when it has such beneficial effects in reducing smog.
| buildyourown wrote: |
| E85 is a scam and everybody who can 3rd grade math knows it. |
E85 as produced today is a political sop to the farm states, with a non-net-positive output calories-wise, due to the heavy petroleum inputs to grow corn at industrial scale. Not so great in the short term. Probably almost as bad as that are the subsidies offered to businesses and state governments for the added cost to buy "flex-fuel" vehicles for their fleets in order to increase the market for ETOH, but those vehicles are almost never fueled with E85 in practice.
But taking the longrun outlook, in my view it's still a benefit, because we're creating the distribution and sales infrastructure needed to bring more sustainable supplies of ETOH to market. Other fermentation processes show promise and I just read the other day that a large cellulosic ETOH plant will soon be bringing substantial quantities to market. Once a carbon trading system is in place, high-petro input processes like corn ETOH will be less cost-competitve with lower carbon intensive ones, and eventualy corn ETOH will be phased out. But without subsidy to lay in the groundwork it's hard to see how the more carbon-neutral types would ever find their way into our fuel tanks.
The impact on food supply is a red herring; the corn diverted to ETOH we only eat otherwise in the form of lot-fed beef and high-fructose corn syrup. If you want to understand where all that the corn ends up, see the documentary "King Corn". Diverting more of it to fuel production means less of the surpluses available that have resulted in the massive market for unhealthy corn sweeteners, which saturate so many processed food products today and greatly contribute to the diminishment of public health. Making corn sweeteners more expensive could only be a good thing for us all. I love my hamburgers, too, but the beef we buy is the kind of food we would also be better off eating less of. |
Good info, tencent. There is a huge ethanol plant not too far from me. What an operation! And, to think that they "probably" make a profit from it( even after any subsidies), you wonder just how many of these we will be seeing in the future.
OH, BTW- yesterday's E85 price was not even 10 cents less than 87 octane at the pump. I am still not really sold on it, yet. But I do like the idea of at least being RENEWABLE, even if we have a bumpy start to the industry.
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devesvws
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Location: madison va
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tencentlife
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| OH, BTW- yesterday's E85 price was not even 10 cents less than 87 octane at the pump. I am still not really sold on it, yet. But I do like the idea of at least being RENEWABLE, .... |
I'm not sold on it yet, either. Cost aside (I don't watch that because I don't buy it. Yet.), there's only one place along my usual routes that sells E85. That's too few places to fill up in my huge normal driving area. I'm sure if I looked for it I would find more, but that's all that is along my usual route so far.
Second, when I switch, it will be with an engine and FI that are designed to burn the fuel efficiently. That means I will build an engine with something like 16:1 CR, making burning gasoline impossible anymore. Since I don't have the means to build a variable compression engine, it's one or the other.
But, as the market for it grows, and it becomes more available, I will be looking more and more seriously at making the jump. Cost per gallon is the factor lowest on my list; I got used to paying $4/gal for gasoline, I just learned to drive less and do more things on a trip to town, and I know that if we want to get out of the petroleum paradigm, we will have to pay for it. You see a lot of people saying they support switching our sources of energy so long as it doesn't come out of their pockets, but that is the behavior of spoiled children. Adults know that if you want something, you must pay for it. And even adults willfully ignore what cheap petroleum actually costs; the external costs bring the cost per gallon to two to three times the price at the pump, and we pay the balance thru our tax system and our health care system and our food system, with many costs still completely externalised, the bills for which coming due years from now. I can promise you one thing for certain: those costs will be borne solely by the consuming public and the taxpayers. So you're investing invisibly in the petroleum business with every purchase, but in ways that are not transparent. I would much rather see our money invested in transitional technologies and markets even if it is thru direct government subsidies, because we can actually quantify those and offer or withdraw our political support for those decisions via the ballot box and the mailbox. We don't have that kind of leverage with the global petroleum industry.
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daryleWB
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Joined: May 10, 2010
Posts: 8
Location: Washington, D.C.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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I find that I get better fuel mileage running about E30 than I do with the standard pump E10. We don't have blender pumps where I drive, so I've got to estimate. I've recently installed an E85 conversion kit, which is needed for running higher ethanol concentrations. I'll post my results after I get more experience with it.
I haven't considered checking emissions. Perhaps I should have it checked with E0 and then again with E85 (which is closer to E70 in the winter time at this latitude.) |
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