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2WD Setup Like a 4WD
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euromog
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'\\D/'

ericos_bob wrote:
j_dirge wrote:
euromog wrote:
I respectfully disagree and have the experiences to prove it. I have climbed hills and obstacles that Jeeps, Bronco's, Pinzgauers and Unimogs were not able to.

Driver skill factors in a great deal (tip o the hat).. but I'm not going to buy the claim that equal drivers with similarly built up jeep CJ and syncro and the syncro wins.

Broncos, Pinzg, and Unimogs.. much bigger, heavier.. and I'd beleive that claim.,, though the old Bronco crowd would roar in protest, methinks.


The great thing is a syncro is still more capable than any jacked up 4x4 on the market that does not have a diff lock. There are still many makes of 4x4 that do not come with factory installed diff locks. Even 4x4s with excellent articulation cannot climb uneven slopes nearly as well as a poorly articulated syncro which has front and rear diff locks. I got a real kick out of going to a nearby quarry and climbing an uneven bulldust slope while 15 odd other 4x4s of various makes looked like helpless lambs stuck half way up spinning their wheels. Would have been a different story if someone had arb airlockers fitted but it was my lucky day
Cool Dancing Dancing
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericos_bob wrote:
j_dirge wrote:
euromog wrote:
I respectfully disagree and have the experiences to prove it. I have climbed hills and obstacles that Jeeps, Bronco's, Pinzgauers and Unimogs were not able to.

Driver skill factors in a great deal (tip o the hat).. but I'm not going to buy the claim that equal drivers with similarly built up jeep CJ and syncro and the syncro wins.

Broncos, Pinzg, and Unimogs.. much bigger, heavier.. and I'd beleive that claim.,, though the old Bronco crowd would roar in protest, methinks.


The great thing is a syncro is still more capable than any jacked up 4x4 on the market that does not have a diff lock. There are still many makes of 4x4 that do not come with factory installed diff locks. Even 4x4s with excellent articulation cannot climb uneven slopes nearly as well as a poorly articulated syncro which has front and rear diff locks. I got a real kick out of going to a nearby quarry and climbing an uneven bulldust slope while 15 odd other 4x4s of various makes looked like helpless lambs stuck half way up spinning their wheels. Would have been a different story if someone had arb airlockers fitted but it was my lucky day

I think we are pretty much in agreement.
No?
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danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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IdahoDoug
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ericos,

I want to believe that the Syncro is as capable as you describe vs other 4X4's. Partly because I'm about halfway through restoring one and partly because this is a VW forum and I'm in that enthusiastic "new owner" phase where I can't stop talking about my Syncro at dinner parties and the like. But though you had a lucky day on a dusty slope vs unknown drivers I'd reluctantly disagree - though you did say Syncro with lockers as in plural and frankly that's a pretty tough advantage to overcome.

However, an unlocked vehicle with excellent articulation (my 80 series Cruisers, several of the Land Rovers, etc) would likely leave the Syncro far behind in a traditional offroad competition involving a wide variety of the typical challenges in a day of Western US offroading.

Sorry this will sound like a "mine's bigger" salvo, but a recent example highlights it. I recently attended a charity auction where among other things you could pay to use a sledgehammer, etc on a midsize US sedan. I paid a bunch to see if I could drive my 80 up onto the hood. It's totally stock and I was able to drive up until one front tire was on the hood's center. Unlocked. With the other three tires still firmly on the ground well enough that I never spun a wheel.

Even a locked Syncro couldn't have done that without sustaining severe body/bumper damage or worse. Translate that into a series of ledges or a rocky obstacle on a steep slope and I'm going to leave a Syncro at the bottom of the hill. Ditto 8" deep mud where I'm going to drag my undercarriage badly and risk getting stuck to get across even with excellent stock clearance - a Syncro'd be high centered immediately. Ditto sliding the frame gently over a typical log crossing - a Syncro'd be high centered like a turtle.

So the lockers add tremendously to a Syncro's offroad capability, but its form factor of protruding rear overhang, underbody clearance, and lack of articulation are limiters that simply can't be compensated for entirely. Spend 10 minutes looking at YouTube video of Syncros, and 10 minutes looking at stock Range Rovers and you'll get a flavor. Though if you run across the amazing video of a deep river crossing in Africa of 3 heavily laden Syncros, I was openmouth astonished and would not attempt that in my Cruiser. Truly epic.

DougM
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singler3360
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DDye,
I like what you are doing and have thought back and forth on this path vs. a full Syncro vehicle swap. There's all the upgrades I've done to my 2WD Westy that I'd rather not repeat on another vehicle. I'm contemplating one day having North Westy convert my 2WD to 4WD instead. In the meantime, I can be upgrading tires, springs, shocks, etc... which are desirable with the 4WD conversion anyway.

A higher priority though is to convert to a TDi first but I don't know if GreaseWorks would rather have the 4WD conversion done prior. The point is that I obviously don't have the ways and means to perform these conversions myself and must rely on these professional garages. Therefore, I must pace the finances for them over a longer period. In the meantime, there's a child to educate and I want a Westy we can use and enjoy. The "off-road" 2WD mods are points along that path.

I am curious if others see the 2WD with (L)LSD as part of this evolution master plan?
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Williamtaylor33
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.
I can see wanting to convert your 2wd to syncro if you had already done everything you want to it. But a syncro and tdi conversion???
Your looking at 30,000 to have all this work done. With really nice syncro westys going for 15-20k is it really worth it? You could sell your 2wd and buy a syncro westy and still have 25k to put into it for that amount of cash.
singler3360 wrote:
DDye,
I like what you are doing and have thought back and forth on this path vs. a full Syncro vehicle swap. There's all the upgrades I've done to my 2WD Westy that I'd rather not repeat on another vehicle. I'm contemplating one day having North Westy convert my 2WD to 4WD instead. In the meantime, I can be upgrading tires, springs, shocks, etc... which are desirable with the 4WD conversion anyway.

A higher priority though is to convert to a TDi first but I don't know if GreaseWorks would rather have the 4WD conversion done prior. The point is that I obviously don't have the ways and means to perform these conversions myself and must rely on these professional garages. Therefore, I must pace the finances for them over a longer period. In the meantime, there's a child to educate and I want a Westy we can use and enjoy. The "off-road" 2WD mods are points along that path.

I am curious if others see the 2WD with (L)LSD as part of this evolution master plan?

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ericos_bob
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say I agree with williamtaylor33 here.

Personally I'd probably rather buy a well sorted non westy syncro. If you're lucky maybe with an engine conversion already done. I see this as the easier option. Swap the westy interior onto it. Comes down to how soon you need 4x4. A little patience pays off.


As far as converting to tdi and 4x4 your cheapest option if viable would be to have eveything done in one hit. That is 4x4 conversion and engine install while the van is in bits any way. Will save you $$$$ on labor.

Williamtaylor33 wrote:
Wow.
I can see wanting to convert your 2wd to syncro if you had already done everything you want to it. But a syncro and tdi conversion???
Your looking at 30,000 to have all this work done. With really nice syncro westys going for 15-20k is it really worth it? You could sell your 2wd and buy a syncro westy and still have 25k to put into it for that amount of cash.
singler3360 wrote:
DDye,
I like what you are doing and have thought back and forth on this path vs. a full Syncro vehicle swap. There's all the upgrades I've done to my 2WD Westy that I'd rather not repeat on another vehicle. I'm contemplating one day having North Westy convert my 2WD to 4WD instead. In the meantime, I can be upgrading tires, springs, shocks, etc... which are desirable with the 4WD conversion anyway.

A higher priority though is to convert to a TDi first but I don't know if GreaseWorks would rather have the 4WD conversion done prior. The point is that I obviously don't have the ways and means to perform these conversions myself and must rely on these professional garages. Therefore, I must pace the finances for them over a longer period. In the meantime, there's a child to educate and I want a Westy we can use and enjoy. The "off-road" 2WD mods are points along that path.

I am curious if others see the 2WD with (L)LSD as part of this evolution master plan?
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singler3360
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate the comments. There would have to be some years between the 4WD and TDi conversions and I couldn't justify the engine conversion until the Tiico is done. Without the time/pacing factor, I would agree. I will continue, however, to challenge my thinking and check the Syncro sale ads (weekly). Laughing
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boulderdrop
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Farfrumwork wrote:
I bought a semi-custom transmission mount from Mike at Rocky Mountain Westy which allows me to bolt the syncro tranny to the 2wd tranny mount points.


That's sweet. Got a pic? Razz But seriously. I'd like to see the difference, it'd be cool to have a granny-gear with the locker I have in the back with the Bostig.

Farfrumwork wrote:
I ws thinking of the LLSD, but I may put the $$ into some 930 axles/cv's.


I don't know much about alternate axle/cv's. What are the advantages to you?
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== My Rides ==
1984 Westy, Bostig, 3rd:1.14, Locker-LSD, Newly Painted
1980 24' J-Boat
1979 Sears Freespirit Moped
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2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid (Wife's)

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Farfrumwork
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pics with be forthcoming... I've got the transmission and mount, but it'll be a month or so before I start the full swap. I should be preparing the tranny in the meantime, maybe I'll post something with the mount on the tranny.

Advantages of the 930 axles/cv setup? We'll my CV's need a rebuild anyhow (at least a repack), and once the locker is in I expect much more load on the rear drive lines every now and then. People break stock axles/cv's with 2.1 wbx's when using the locked diff, and I have a bit more power with a EJ22. Think of all the power transmitted to ONE rear wheel that has traction... I just don't need that on a side of a mountain.

Do I need it - no way. Much of what I have I don't need. Lots of piece of mind though, that I need! Shouldn't ever break on me.
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kayakwesty
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my setup and I went where a TRD Toyota went

we even found a concrete pad out in the sticks of all things...

Bilstein shocks, GoWesty lift springs, with ball joint spacers ,17" Mercedes wheels with Yokahawa GeoLander tires, with a auto tranny and ABA motor.

I will eventually have a locker in it

The new tires really helped ...thanks to Loggy's help on helping me pick out the right tires.

I would love to have a Syncro, but I can barely keep mine running and good parts are getting harder and harder to find


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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http://www.kayakwesty.com

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targis58
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is mine.

Just got BFG AT TA KO 215 75 15's on. One step closer to 4wd set up.

I have put on gowesty lift springs, bilstein HD shocks, SA Rhein rims and Peloquine's LSD.

I have not had a good chance to test the LSD yet.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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kayakwesty
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have not had a good chance to test the LSD yet.


What setup did you go with ?
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1984 Westy 2.0 Jetta ABA Motor/1.8 head converted to auto tranny, with 180,000 on body, 55K on engine and transmission

B.5.5 Passat Wagen with 30v V6-67000 Miles

DAS AUTO

CHANGE YOUR FUEL LINES!

A post without pictures is useless

http://www.kayakwesty.com

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targis58
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kayakwesty wrote:
Quote:
I have not had a good chance to test the LSD yet.


What setup did you go with ?


Peloquin.

I had it put in while my trans was rebuilt by German transaxles.

Oh, I bought the one that s lockable so I can install locker in the future .
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boulderdrop
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't think there's ever a true substitute for traction than a syncro. But I believe ground-clearance is achievable.

Got stuck, spinning my wheels on the packed-snow/ice parking lot of the local ski-resort. The recently installed locker (LLSD) did a great job of keeping both wheels spinning against the ice. I was a little bummed, but it did do quite well on the access-road, which used to require an immediate chain-up. I guess there's just no substitute for throwing on some cable-chains (my wife times me and I can do it in under 2.5minutes). After that, pull the vacuum switch to engage the LLSD and start plowing through stuff with the 205/65/R16 Nokian Hakkapeliitta C2 with Studs. I'm not sure studs was a good addition, as I switch the studs out when I get home for seattle-rain-tyres.

Nokian Hakkapeliitta C2
http://www.tiresbyweb.com/p-7014-nokian-hakkapeliitta-c2-studded.aspx

Locker (LLSD) installed during rebuild
http://www.aatransaxle.com/price_list.htm

Cable-Chains (don't get tangled, quick to install and easy to hang from the pop-top bar and a large clip)
http://www.etrailer.com/Tire-Chains/Glacier/PW1038.html?feed=npn

Alpental
http://www.summitatsnoqualmie.com/Mountains/Alpental
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== My Rides ==
1984 Westy, Bostig, 3rd:1.14, Locker-LSD, Newly Painted
1980 24' J-Boat
1979 Sears Freespirit Moped
1996 Chev S10 4x4 ZR2
2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid (Wife's)

== How I Pay the Bills ==
Windows FTP Server at http://www.bpftpserver.com (PM for a FREE one)
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targis58
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boulderdrop wrote:
I really don't think there's ever a true substitute for traction than a syncro. But I believe ground-clearance is achievable.

Got stuck, spinning my wheels on the packed-snow/ice parking lot of the local ski-resort. The recently installed locker (LLSD) did a great job of keeping both wheels spinning against the ice. I was a little bummed, but it did do quite well on the access-road, which used to require an immediate chain-up. I guess there's just no substitute for throwing on some cable-chains (my wife times me and I can do it in under 2.5minutes). After that, pull the vacuum switch to engage the LLSD and start plowing through stuff with the 205/65/R16 Nokian Hakkapeliitta C2 with Studs. I'm not sure studs was a good addition, as I switch the studs out when I get home for seattle-rain-tyres.

Nokian Hakkapeliitta C2
http://www.tiresbyweb.com/p-7014-nokian-hakkapeliitta-c2-studded.aspx

Locker (LLSD) installed during rebuild
http://www.aatransaxle.com/price_list.htm

Cable-Chains (don't get tangled, quick to install and easy to hang from the pop-top bar and a large clip)
http://www.etrailer.com/Tire-Chains/Glacier/PW1038.html?feed=npn

Alpental
http://www.summitatsnoqualmie.com/Mountains/Alpental


Are u happy with the locker option on top of the LSD?

I almost went for it then quit. I decided to find a syncro trans and transplant the LSD into it.
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boulderdrop
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

targis58 wrote:
boulderdrop wrote:
The recently installed locker (LLSD) did a great job of keeping both wheels spinning against the ice. I was a little bummed, but it did do quite well on the access-road, which used to require an immediate chain-up.


Are u happy with the locker option on top of the LSD?

I almost went for it then quit. I decided to find a syncro trans and transplant the LSD into it.


It's cool. My sense is that it's better than LSD/TBD/Peloquin, but you have to go slow and straight. I really like it for loose stuff, like the roadway's packed-snow on top of ice. You know, that stuff that breakups into little icebergs on the surface and causes our poor old 1WD drives to spin. I thought long about Locker-Style LLSD vs LSD/TBD (peloquin)...

For me, it kind of came down to (i mostly do snow driving).. I'm driving on the road, the snow is really coming down, the roadway is covered and I can't see the pavement. I might have even put on the chains already:
- I think my tires might slip, but I'm glad I have the LSD always on and ready
- I've got my chains on, I'm already going slow and mostly straight. I think it just got really nasty, so I'll just flip on the locker for a little more

I don't really know the answer of which is better. I did a bunch of research during my buying phase, but I didn't really know much prior to the Bostig (and kind of just asked Daryl what he thought I should get); so I didn't retain much. But a thread called "Peloquin TSD differential (or LSD or TBD or PTD) test?" seems to have some good quick info:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=347063&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I have a neat little modification to the warning-panel for running a light to the warning-panel from the tranny. Just begging to be installed that came from a Samba vendor:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=602331
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



GoWesty "Positraction"
http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=3897&category_id=93&category_parent_id=

Peloquin LSD
http://www.peloquins.com/products_091.html
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
== My Rides ==
1984 Westy, Bostig, 3rd:1.14, Locker-LSD, Newly Painted
1980 24' J-Boat
1979 Sears Freespirit Moped
1996 Chev S10 4x4 ZR2
2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid (Wife's)

== How I Pay the Bills ==
Windows FTP Server at http://www.bpftpserver.com (PM for a FREE one)
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BlackDogVan
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish Wavetrac would embrace the vanagon...

http://www.wavetrac.net/technical.htm
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shizzon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Got stuck, spinning my wheels on the packed-snow/ice parking lot of the local ski-resort.


Was it steep? How much snow? ...i've been hoping an LLSD would save me from similar situations at CO ski areas ... Rolling Eyes
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boulderdrop
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shizzon wrote:
Quote:
Got stuck, spinning my wheels on the packed-snow/ice parking lot of the local ski-resort.


Was it steep? How much snow? ...i've been hoping an LLSD would save me from similar situations at CO ski areas ... Rolling Eyes


Nope, it was flat as a pancake. We got about 3' and although they (kind of) plow the parking-lots, it had 10" of new and was vehicle-packed and was pretty much a sheet of ice. 3 people helped push me and it really didn't take much, as they could barely stand. One it started rolling, no problem. But with cable-chains and the LLSD, no problem whatsoever. In the stock setup, cable chains still would been the savior and the LLSD wouldn't have made much difference, except if there was some grade or loose snow on the surface.
_________________
== My Rides ==
1984 Westy, Bostig, 3rd:1.14, Locker-LSD, Newly Painted
1980 24' J-Boat
1979 Sears Freespirit Moped
1996 Chev S10 4x4 ZR2
2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid (Wife's)

== How I Pay the Bills ==
Windows FTP Server at http://www.bpftpserver.com (PM for a FREE one)
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vanagonjr
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still a bit mystified why 2WD Vanagons are so bad off-road, especially when Bays seem to have no problems. Yes, I been told the bay has better suspension travel - but I've been stuck on flat wet grass, as others.

Yes, I know the weight distribution for the Bay is better, but I've off-roaded with a Toyota T-100 P/U around Moab and barely used 4WD, and never used the front and diff locks. Granted, it had killer tires, but still I usually engaged 4WD as not to beat up the truck or the road (except for one really sandy road.) and then only for limited sections. I'd blame it on the high-pressure small tires, but Bays have those as well and apparently from the sounds of this thread, better tires certainly help but the vehicle is still somewhat marginal.

I still plan to install my Syncro trans some day and probably get better suited tires that I can air (way) down. Luckily we have lots of ground clearance which for hard packed dirt roads is often only what you need. I'm not looking for a killer off road machine - in fact, maybe I should forget the off road (I'm in New England anyway) and just lower it and embrace the street - great handling these things are for being vans!

John
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