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p horvath Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2003 Posts: 1225 Location: south carolina
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Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:32 pm Post subject: steering box |
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does anyone know the dimensions of the seals for a <52 steering box? |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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I'd like some more info in this area too....
Here are some steering boxes I have. The two on the left have some ribbing in the top cover that the other two don't have. The steering box from my '51 (not in this pic) is the "smooth" kind like the 2 on the right.
Are all these split steering boxes?
More to Paul's question, when did they change the seal size?
I have some seal kits that my Zarwerks Partner Jim Bremer put together, but I am not exactly certain if they are for split steering boxes. I will take these apart this weekend and find out for sure.
The seals I have in this kit are:
Large, OD: 40mm
Large, ID: ~27mm
Small, OD: 24mm
Small, ID: ~ 15.5mm
I also have a whole box of NOS bearings for the steering box shafts, was wondering if they changed those in the split/oval era as well.... _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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nlorntson Crazy VW Lady
Joined: March 13, 2004 Posts: 3776 Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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There was some discussion starting on page 42 of this thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...;start=840
The guy doing the rebuild (LastTriumph) did a bunch of measuring found ones that work in his car. He may have more information to offer as he was soliciting measurements from early oval and split owners. |
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66brm Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2010 Posts: 3676 Location: Perth Western Australia
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:33 am Post subject: |
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I can measure up a late oval box I have sitting on my work bench when I get home, I do know that the 40mm OD is correct for the large seal on late ovals, I just have to check the shaft size and small seal. I may be in the market for one of those kits _________________ Aust. RHD 66 Type 1
Aust. RHD 57 Type 1 Oval
modok wrote: |
I am an expert at fitting things in holes, been doing it a long time |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: |
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nlorntson wrote: |
There was some discussion starting on page 42 of this thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...;start=840
The guy doing the rebuild (LastTriumph) did a bunch of measuring found ones that work in his car. He may have more information to offer as he was soliciting measurements from early oval and split owners. |
Yeah, looks like his oval one is the kind with the ribbing/gussets on the top.
Still seems odd that the shafts would be different sizes between that one and the "smooth one". I'll take one of each apart this weekend and see what's up. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I spent a good 3 hours tearing apart a VERY cruddy split steering box tonight. The difference between the split boxes and the later one is primarily that the pitman arm shaft is 22mm instead of 30mm.
On the right you see the two seals I had in my kit, including the large 27x40mm one. On the left you can see the one I pried form the split box, it is a 22x30mm, and about 6.5 mm high. Interesting that in the split box (the one for the steering column shaft) the small seal is a channel type ring, with a felt "seal". Since this shaft basically comes out of the top of the box, it seems unlikely that oil would weep out that area.
I kept looking at it , thinking there was no seal in it, until I looked real close.
It is the same dimension as the later box, so the later box smaller seal will work there.
This was kind of fun, I had to soak it in gasoline, brush it, scrape it, media blast it. This particular box a was on a split that was left outside for 20+ years, the top cover for it is pretty badly pitted, but usable. I will probably put this box in the classifieds after I am done. I will restore the box for my '51, and another next, and take pics and post details in the "Zarwerks Spy Cam Thread".
Paul, sorry for hijacking your thread, but I honestly would have never pulled this old grungy box from my basement and took it all apart had you not asked about the seals. Hopefully I answered your question.
Soooooo, who here is going surfing the web to find a 30x22.6.5mm steel banded oil seal???
{BTW, it is a ridged seal, and a grooved bore in the box, but I's bet a regular square shouldered seal would work just fine......." _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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66brm Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2010 Posts: 3676 Location: Perth Western Australia
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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My measurments come out slightly different, the "input" shaft seal is 16mmx 25mm, the pitman arm shaft seal is 40mmx 28mm. The box I checked also has the three gussets radiating on the top _________________ Aust. RHD 66 Type 1
Aust. RHD 57 Type 1 Oval
modok wrote: |
I am an expert at fitting things in holes, been doing it a long time |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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66brm wrote: |
My measurments come out slightly different, the "input" shaft seal is 16mmx 25mm, the pitman arm shaft seal is 40mmx 28mm. The box I checked also has the three gussets radiating on the top |
I think the one with the gussets is later. I know my '51 has the "smooth" box. The '56 referenced previously has the gusseted box. 66brm, what year is your box off of, and do you know if it is original??? _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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a1steaksauce Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2010 Posts: 612
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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johnshenry wrote: |
Soooooo, who here is going surfing the web to find a 30x22.6.5mm steel banded oil seal???
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those seals are available from a company here in Ohio called Motion Industries and their pricing is very reasonable. # (937) 236-7711 just call them up tell them what kind of seal you're looking for and the dimensions of it. just rebuilt a kubel steering box using one of their seals and it passed the leak test with flying colors. they're also a great source for replacement bearings for split case transmissions.
and fyi, they're not a vw parts house, just a place that can supply bearings, seals, etc...so don't call up and be all "so i have this 51' beetle" as that will not help them get you what you're after. |
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66brm Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2010 Posts: 3676 Location: Perth Western Australia
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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johnshenry wrote: |
66brm wrote: |
My measurments come out slightly different, the "input" shaft seal is 16mmx 25mm, the pitman arm shaft seal is 40mmx 28mm. The box I checked also has the three gussets radiating on the top |
I think the one with the gussets is later. I know my '51 has the "smooth" box. The '56 referenced previously has the gusseted box. 66brm, what year is your box off of, and do you know if it is original??? |
Its off a late oval 1957 and is original to the car _________________ Aust. RHD 66 Type 1
Aust. RHD 57 Type 1 Oval
modok wrote: |
I am an expert at fitting things in holes, been doing it a long time |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:36 am Post subject: |
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a1steaksauce wrote: |
johnshenry wrote: |
Soooooo, who here is going surfing the web to find a 30x22.6.5mm steel banded oil seal???
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those seals are available from a company here in Ohio called Motion Industries and their pricing is very reasonable. # (937) 236-7711 just call them up tell them what kind of seal you're looking for and the dimensions of it. just rebuilt a kubel steering box using one of their seals and it passed the leak test with flying colors. they're also a great source for replacement bearings for split case transmissions.
and fyi, they're not a vw parts house, just a place that can supply bearings, seals, etc...so don't call up and be all "so i have this 51' beetle" as that will not help them get you what you're after. |
Thanks!! _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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Last Triumph Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2006 Posts: 914 Location: Wirral, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:19 am Post subject: |
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Gentlemen....
I have been researching this topic for some time now and many of you might have seen, I can supply steering box seels for Ovals.
The difference with the ribbed top cover was a mid '56 modification just to add strength to the area and does not make any difference to the seals or the opperation of the unit.
I am just waititng to hit the button to get a run of early split box seals made amd just need accurate dimensions of a early split box pitman arm.
I can see various people have measure the actual seals, which is great, but the dimension i need is the EAXCT (vernier or mic) dimension of the pitman arm.
I suspect it will be 22mm or 23mm but need it confirming.
As soon as I have this dimension, within 1 week I will be able to supply you all with a seal kit for split boxes for the same price.
If you can measure the pitman and pm me the dimension I'll make it happen.
Thanks |
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HeSa Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2007 Posts: 466 Location: FINLAND
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Hope this helps.
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Last Triumph Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2006 Posts: 914 Location: Wirral, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Great stuff - early split box seals on order.... |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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LT, here are the measurements. I presume that when you say pitman arm, you are referring what the manuals call a "sector shft", or the shaft that the pitman arm connects to.
In the pics below you can see the difference between the split housing (left, 22mm sector shaft) and oval housing (right 28mm sector shaft).
I mic'ed the sector shaft out at 21.95mm, the bore for the seal in the housing at 29.88mm and the overall height of the seal at 6.45mm.
Not that the original seal has a ridge and the bore in the housing a groove. I don't think this is a big deal, and a flat sided seal can work just fine.
In the industry, such an oil seal would be a 22x30.6.5mm, and there are several styles. But this is a non pressurized application so an all rubber seal should work fine.
I did find several suppliers in the US for 22x30x6s, but I will wait for LT's seal and would like several of them.
I will post pics later of the felt ring seal that the worm shaft uses, it is a clever design, and the vintage preservationist in me would really like to use that instead of a rubber seal. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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ToolBox Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 3439 Location: Detroit, where they don't jack parts off my ride in the parking lot of the 7-11
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:35 am Post subject: |
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a1steaksauce wrote: |
johnshenry wrote: |
Soooooo, who here is going surfing the web to find a 30x22.6.5mm steel banded oil seal???
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those seals are available from a company here in Ohio called Motion Industries and their pricing is very reasonable. # (937) 236-7711 just call them up tell them what kind of seal you're looking for and the dimensions of it. just rebuilt a kubel steering box using one of their seals and it passed the leak test with flying colors. they're also a great source for replacement bearings for split case transmissions.
and fyi, they're not a vw parts house, just a place that can supply bearings, seals, etc...so don't call up and be all "so i have this 51' beetle" as that will not help them get you what you're after. |
Motion Ind or Bearing Services are usually my first calls when trying to locate seals and bearings for older vehicles.
Are there any numbers on your old seal? If so just give a call with them and you could have a seal in minutes localy. |
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Last Triumph Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2006 Posts: 914 Location: Wirral, United Kingdom
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Ok guys, I've now got a huge stash of seals for split boxes - both upper and lower seals.
They are the same extra secure double lip design I've been supplying for a while for Oval boxes and to my very own '57 working a treat.
Been a long time coming, but got there in the end.
As with the Oval set, they are $22 for the pair which includes postage anywhere in the world and paypal fees.
I don't want this to be considered a thinly veiled for sale ad, so I'll pay my dues and place a 'paid for' ad in the parts classifieds in a moment....
Cheers! |
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