Tormented by Random No-Start on '68 Sedan

[RefDude]

My '68 Beetle runs like a top but I'm being tormented by a random no-start it is doing.
I thought it was attributed to something getting hot during my ride home and then would start when it cooled.
All connections seem good at this time.
I stopped on the way home for gas, today and it did it again!
No click, no sound, no nothing!
Pushed it off, thinking it would do the same thing when I got home so I got home, shut it off and tried to start it.
Voila!! It turned over and started... no problem-O!!
Aahhhggghhh!!!

Any ideas??

Thanks,

RefDude
Byron, Georgia

[Paul Windisch]

Do the lights on the dash come on bright when it does NOT start?
_________________
*ASE Recertified Master Automotive Tech*

1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
-Dual Weber IDF 40s w/ 26mm venturis
-034 SVDA Distributor

2013 Chevrolet Volt DD
2005 Pontiac Montana SV6

MAHLE Service Solutions
Applications Engineer

[RefDude]

Yea, they appear to be normal 'bright-itude'... <:0\
Kinda schtanx...!

[betatested]

I'm curious to hear the answer to your problem.

My 74 std decided that the starter didn't want to work Saturday as I was trying to leave the mall. And since I couldn't see the starter, and didn't have anything metal to bang it if I could, I gave her the old push start. Haven't had an issue with it since then, but I know these kinds of things typically get worse over time.

In my case, the gen and oil lights came on, and the fuel pump was working (checked the filter and it was filling up) but there was nothing when I turned the key over to the starter position.

(My 82 BMW 320i would have that issue pretty regularly before I tore the engine out for a rebuild and then lost interest in the project)

[KillerTux]

I had this happen a few times too. It was fixed by installing a hot start relay. Check out this article by WW
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/wired/wired_03_01/wired_03_01.htm
_________________
1964 Beetle Convertible

[Paul Windisch]

Couple things to check: First, make sure the two large wires on the voltage regulator under the back seat are clean and tight. If they are loose or dirty they can cause a good size voltage drop to the ignition switch and back to the starter solenoid that can cause the solenoid to not engage. The problem will be exacerbated by driving it for awhile because the terminals will get hot as everything electrical passes through that connection, with the exception of the large starter cable. The second thing to check is the voltage at the small starter solenoid wire at the starter. Check this voltage on an occasion where the engine won't start; Have someone turn the key to "start" and see what voltage you have between that wire and ground. Please perform this test with the wheels blocked and the car out of gear. Compare this measured voltage to the voltage measured across the battery posts. The difference is the voltage drop. If that voltage is within a half a volt of the battery, it can be assumed okay, and you may be in the market for a starter. Sometimes a sticky starter can be verified by tapping the starter and solenoid with a hammer while someone is trying to start the engine, again, wheels blocked, out of gear.
_________________
*ASE Recertified Master Automotive Tech*

1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
-Dual Weber IDF 40s w/ 26mm venturis
-034 SVDA Distributor

2013 Chevrolet Volt DD
2005 Pontiac Montana SV6

MAHLE Service Solutions
Applications Engineer

[JonF]

could be a number of things. the ignition switch going bad, loose wire, dirty contact terminals, a bad wire.

i would start with cleaning the wiring terminals and make sure they are tight. then check the voltage at the switch, the junction under the rear seat, and at the starter.

if in a pinch and need to get home you can turn your key on then take the red/black wire pull it apart at the junction under the backseat and tap the side going to the starter on the battery + to spin the engine over and start the car.
_________________
68 bug 1600sp 30/31
68 baja 1600sp 010 32ndix

[wampe]

The first thing I always check is the battery terminals, make sure they are clean and tight.

[RefDude]

It's been a little bit since I've been able to come back to this post and review your comments.
Would like to convey my appreciation for all of you chiming-in to assist.
It is a very cool thing, to me, that I can post a simple(or little) problem like this and get such great and valuable responses...

I decided to go under the car and take a look at what I thought was a good starting point since my whole system appears to have been upgraded or, at least, the harness appears to have been replaced when the resto was done back in '04.
All connections appear to be in good order that I've seen with the exception on the trans-to-frame ground cable.
The cable, itself, and connecting hardware are in good shape other than the fact that it appears some under-coating and paint were covering(to some degree) the connection points.
I took the whole thing apart and cleaned and filed the components, including the attach-points on the trans/frame.
Once this was all reassembled, I see that I'm getting a bright Green/Red light on my dash when the ignition is turned to the 'On' position.
I believe that when my(intermittent) problem would occur, the two dash lights weren't near as bright as they are now.
Not sure if this is the fix but it seems good for the moment.
Bad part about this is that when the problem is going on, it happens only about once in 20-30 start attempts.

Anyway, I felt obligated to give you an update and wanted to provide that since y'all were so kind to share your thoughts on my problem...

[vw_hank]

My car started doing the same exact thing, tern the key dash lights came on, every thing seemed to work, but the car didn't start not even A click from the starter,Nothing.. every one told me I had to have a hard start kit,, ?? why do I need that? the car worked perfect for the previous 9-10 years, and the previous owner drove it for 25 years without needing to put one in,, well I broke down and got the kit, but it just did not seem right the car worked for well over 30 yeas and never needed it why would it need it now?? I started tearing the car apart knowing that there was a problem somewhere and I was going to find it!! well I did, there was no ground strap going from the motor/trany to the pan I went and got A shiny no strap and installed it 2years ago and have not had A problem cents
_________________
1302s sunroof..
1600cc motor. Glenn ring 010. full toplineparts.com suspension. factory front disk brakes. Tram type-3 rear brakes. Hurst shifter. empi-8's. low-back's. tons of mods!

[DrDarby]

IMHO every air cooled VW should have a hard start relay installed as they will all suffer this problem sooner or later. Yes make sure all connectors are clean and tight, grounds are good and the tap the starter trick doesn't work.
The $25.00 hard start kits from the VW parts houses are all pre wired and ready to go. I use a $12.00 Ford fender mounted starter switch / relay / solenoid (whatever the guy at the parts store wants to call it the day I'm there) and wire it up myself. It's quick, simple and cheap insuarance. It mounts under the back seat on the left.
One big post to B+, Other big post to the starter solenoid under the car and the small "S" post to the ignition key wire. To make things easier on most later 67+ cars the ignition key wire runs out of the harness and across the L/R floor then out to the starter by way of a hole just under the brake line.
_________________
Midwest Autosavers, Inc. Woodstock, IL

[RefDude]

From the article link that 'KillerTux' was nice enough to provide, I see that the Relay reduces the amperage requirement down to less that 1 amp and that sounds pretty cool, in and of, itself.
Bad part is, I not sure I understand how it works but, I've heard it from enough folks that I beleive it DOES work.
Anyway, for now, I haven't gone that route but I won't say that I won't, if it comes to that!

Again, thanks for all your thoughts and comments.
I appreciate the pros & cons commentary because hearing ideas from different viewpoints helps me think about things I might not, otherwise.

Y'all have a good and safe, weekend!

[oreana123]

Whoa on the "hard start" relays. If one has a start problem after installing the "hard start" relay, will you install a 2nd one, and then a 3rd? There already exists a relay in the sysytem in the original state. Get that one working.

Remember also that the negative side of the circuit is as important to the current flow, as the positive side. There is supposed to be a bonding strap that is bolted to the left side of the transmission and the left frame horn. The condition of these contacts are as important as the battery terminals or the positive starter contact. Are the ground connections clean and tight?

A little review: a relay is an electrically controlled switch, that uses a small current to switch or control a larger current. The keyed signal to start is the smaller current, the direct feed from the battery is the larger current carrier. The start relay is built in to the factory starter. When you twist the key in the car, the smaller starter wire becomes hot and closes the starter relay, allowing current to flow through the larger wire to the starter windings.

Why have a relay in the start system? Early cars did not have relays, a large switch was sometimes mounted on the floor by the driver. This design required a lot of heavy gauge wire and a switch that could handle the starter electrical loads, not a reasonable design for the VW with it's rear engine design. The remote relay saves money and materials, as you can see.

If you follow all of this you can see that the "hard start" relay is a band-aid, it adresses the symptom but does not cure the problem. On a positive note for the "hard start" relay, if it cures starting problems, then the original underlying problem is in the smaller, control side of the start relay. It merely bypasses the original relay feed from the keyed switch.

I have to laugh at the commercial offerings of "hard start" relays. A demand is created by ignorance, then the marketplace responds with a band-aid- for profit!

[RefDude]

LOL!
oreana123's response had me laffin pretty hard since his '2nd one?, 3rd one?' comments rang some truth which is what vw_hank was trying to say.
It just hit me right and I 'bussOutLaffin', as they say in SouthGeorgia...
Again, another perspective that gives us all something to think about and the part about 'demand is created by ignorance' is so true in the world we live it today, that it is not funny.
Sad, but true...

[flierbob]

I believe the start relay is to reduce current through the start switch as the solenoid draws more current then the start relay would thus reducing the current through the start switch.
Calling the relay a hard start relay is a misnomer, the hard starting is caused by the start switch or voltage drop in the circuit. The relay only directs the voltage to the solenoid over a short distance and provides full voltage so it will energise properly.
All connections must be tight and clean,ground or 12volt.
Bob

[Paul Windisch]

I would install the relay to prolong the life of the ignition switch. Most relays only require about 0.4 amps to cycle, so there is less than a half amp current running through the igition switch, and the contacts in the relay take the brunt of the abuse. If the contacts in the relay go bad, (rare), your fix is easy, as you just plug in another relay. If you are already having a problem with the ignition switch, chances are you will have to fix it, but a starter relay should be installed to reduce the likelyhood of repeat failures. Every other car I know of uses a starter relay.
_________________
*ASE Recertified Master Automotive Tech*

1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
-Dual Weber IDF 40s w/ 26mm venturis
-034 SVDA Distributor

2013 Chevrolet Volt DD
2005 Pontiac Montana SV6

MAHLE Service Solutions
Applications Engineer

[plotch]

Had an intermittent not starting problem, added the relay kit that i got from aircooled.net and no more issues. I agree with the previous two posters and Dr. Darby. Good luck.

[oreana123]

OK now you have done it. I have anice ammeter I'll use to find current on both starter wires. Since I have cleaned and painted the tunnel the starter lives in, I don't mind doing this check.

I always say that actual experience is far better than estimated values when working with antique, mechanical systems. I will not, however, have data for the current draw of the ganged on relay, since I don't have one to test. No matter what the draw for the starter relay ends up as, I believe the contacts on the switch have been designed to withstand the intermittant usage.

Funny how we push our engines in every way to perform at a higher output, yet some would "save" their key switch by installing a second start wire system. Funny world.....

[DrDarby]

[oreana123]

"If all the connections and the battery & starter are ok and still the problem persists"

Then you have not found the real problem.

The only reason for the band aid is to supply proper voltage to the starter relay or selenoid.

So what did the service bulletin for the beetle say? Did VWoA admit that the wiring from the factory would not carry sufficient current to the starter? Did VWoA suggest that the key switch was not up to the task of controlling the start circuit? Just curious since you brought it up.

Why do some beetles go for many years without the problem (mine is a 73)?