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Do you have stock axles and stock CV's, or upgrades
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Do you run stock axles, and is your motor stock?
I have a motor with 180+ ft lbs, and I run stock axles.
23%
 23%  [ 12 ]
I have a motor with 180+ ft lbs, and I run upgraded axles with 930CV's
3%
 3%  [ 2 ]
I have a motor with less than 180 ft lbs, and I run stock axles.
27%
 27%  [ 14 ]
I have a motor with less than 180 ft lbs, and I run upgraded axles with 930CV's
3%
 3%  [ 2 ]
I have a stock waterboxer, and stock axles.
37%
 37%  [ 19 ]
I have a stock waterboxer, with upgraded axles and CV's
3%
 3%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 51

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Jon_slider
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:15 am    Post subject: Do you have stock axles and stock CV's, or upgrades Reply with quote

Im interested in knowing if people with stronger motors, are able to use stock axles.

The motor in my Syncro has 213 Ft lbs of torque, and so far Ive broken a front outer CV, I believe it was caused by a torn boot, allowing muddy water to enter. I replaced the axle with a stock Lobro axle and CV's.

Within the first 5000 miles, the decoupler bushing failed, and the ring and pinion had to be replaced.

Im debating axle upgrades, and trying to prioritize suspension upgrades as well.

If you have ever broken an axle or CV, please share what you think caused it, and whether you upgraded or installed stock again.

thanks
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thummmper
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the angle of the 930's is the main reason for the upgrade, plus the wilderness paranoia factor. mine were handed to me. I have used beamer halfshafts. it was actually an easier route than dropping coin for new 100mm's.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I run 930s and Syncro 16 front outers on my Syncro conversions as they have plenty of power & torque.

The only CV or shaft failure I have ever experienced was offroad in a waterboxer powered Syncro with stock axels and CVs.
I was locked up in the rear and it let loose.
No transmission damage, thank goodness!

dylan
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Jon_slider
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for your votes

so far
71% of stock wbx voters use stock axles
80% of voters with under 180 ft lbs use stock axles, and
60% of voters with more than 180 ft lbs use stock axles

thanks for your votes
please give some details if you have ever broken an axle or CV
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon_slider wrote:
please give some details if you have ever broken an axle or CV


IMHO you are going to find far less owners having issues with the half shafts.
Ask how many have had transmission issues and you will get some more info.
Add in drive shaft issues and now your talkin' serious numbers.
Beefing up everything in a syncro is cool, but remember that the weakest link in the chain is going to break when pressured.
Having axles or CVs that are this weak link is very cost effective if you abuse or offroad often.
Price a core locker Syncro transmission and a rebuild...ain't cheap.
I now use the cheapest EMPI axles in my offroad only Syncro.
That transmission is priceless in my eyes and I have spares backed up that would make people drool.
I still don't want to destroy it.

The Syncros that I have 930s and 16"front outers on have EG33 motors, tuned suspension, stock gearing and are used about 98% of the time on pavement and see track time every now and again.
I still feel a waterboxer powered Syncro used by a very skilled driver in aggresive off road situations will put way more stress on the driveline and cause way more failures.

What do you want to fail is my question???
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Syncrozilla
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I have seen CV joint/axle failures while off roading are almost always the result of a wheel spinning and suddenly gaining traction. For the most part this goes hand in hand with driver experiance/skill level. Remember the old off road saying, "as slow as possible as fast as necessary".

Out here in the west we are almost always off roading in dry environments. Avoiding the conditions that snap axles/cv's is much harder in mud and snow when you can not see the hard surface below.

I run the 930s all the way around because I like to play with my van more than I like to work on it in the dirt. I only run a 2.2 subie and I do push my van hard off road. From what I have seen I'm not so sure I buy into the argument stronger cv's and axles will increase the chances of internal transmission breakage.

Another issue to consider is that breaking an axle/cv in an offroad situation can have serious consequences. This fall we saw Bill Langan's van go on it's side on truck hill in Hollister Hills OHV partially due to a broken CV.
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PDXWesty
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My axle broke when a flat bed operator hooked his tie down hook to it and cranked it down. Does that count?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm running Type 4 CVs on my 2wd Westy and stock axles. I feel that's fine since the EJ22 only has 137ft-lbs. One day I might go 930s but that will only be after my Syncro gets them first. My Syncro is pretty much stock except for a 2.2l WBX. I plan on putting an EG33 in down the road. But I want to upgrade the suspension and drive train first. I actually like that idea of running Empi axles. I would much rather replace an axle than a trans. One more thing for me to look into before I spend all that money.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point Seth.
We don't need vans on there side or roof!
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Jon_slider
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> I actually like that idea of running Empi axles. I would much rather replace an axle than a trans.

afaik In the 10 years that John Wessels has been using 930CV's in his highly modified offroad Syncro, with Torsional Axles, and 180ft lbs of torque, he has never broken a CV, nor an Axle, nor a transaxle.

I would say that he may be right in the belief that Torsional Axles PROTECT the Transaxle.

imo the Torsional Axle is the essential part of the recipe, for protecting the Transaxle, as well as the axle.

The upgrade to type 4 or 930CV's is to protect the cage from breaking under high angles, such as when lifting a van past 19.5" hub to fender..

just my opinions.. seek professional confirmation..

fwiw, I was in Bills Van on the way up truck hill and I got out when the axle failed. But I had no way to anchor the van and Bill could not hold the brake long enough for me to get help. I wish he had Brake Line Locks. (he had lifted his van to 20.5" I believe, with stock axles.. and had already broken 2 previously.. third time was the charm, he now has 930cv's, torsional axles, and dropped his lift to 19.5")

Im upgrading to torsional axles with type 4CVs in the rear, thanks to burleymotorsports.com .. even though I still dont plan to go up Truck Hill..
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syncrozilla wrote:
From what I have seen I'm not so sure I buy into the argument stronger cv's and axles will increase the chances of internal transmission breakage.
.


Ive seen it and fixed it, Ring gear had 10 sheared off teeth, on a cliff in Baja, not a good situation Shocked
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Jon_slider
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> Ive seen it and fixed it, Ring gear had 10 sheared off teeth

are you sure the damage was caused by the 930CV's?

Could it have been caused by something else? I know SVX's are notorious for chewing up ring and pinions.. I think its the torque.., btw How much torque on the motor?

Was he going up the cliff, was there wheel spin involved?

or was he going downhill, with a solid shaft and front locked, maybe encoutered sudden resistance, a big rock for example, and the load transferred to the ring and pinion because there was no VC to absorb the impact?

Because breaking anything while offroading can be precarious, I'm not sure intentionally choosing a known weak stock replacement Empi axle and CV assembly is prudent.

If you dont feel comfortable increasing the strength of the stock axle and CV's, at least dont downgrade.

I think an axle capable of absorbing shock by twisting is still desireable. Even if you use a stock Lobro CV

imo, what CV you choose is secondary to using a torsional axle that can buffer or absorb shock loads associated with high torque motors, high lifts, and heavy offroad use.. would you agree?

the CV change is more directly related to lift angles, that is, more lift requires a CV with more range.. both the Type 4 CV and the 930 CV have more range than the stock Lobro, and more range than the cheap stock replacement empi axle and cv assembly.. if Ive done my reading right.

and also, I believe its actually the cage that breaks on a CV, so upgrading that, makes sense to me, so long as the torsional axle is part of the system.. but if you want the CV to be a weak link in the system, then dont upgrade the cage, just use a CV with enough angle range for your lift..

fwiw, by going to a type 4CV, I retain the ability to swap in a stock axle, not the case with 930's (33 spline shaft), due to stub axle changes.. so I chose the type 4 in case one day I break one, and some nice guy offers me his spare Empi to get home on Smile

Im mostly talking about rear axles here, but similar logic applies to the front.. a torsional axle is desireable, even if a stock 90mm (non syncro 16) outer CV is retained, with a type 4 or Lobro front inner CV (28spline shaft)
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onwardtothestars
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have killed two front outer CV's. Both were during offroad outings . Both were stock, and used when they came into my hands. The first time I hand gone down a long grade and when I reached the bottom it was a sharp turn and back up another grade, right after the turn when I applied the throttle it went. I actually heard it snap.
The second time it was after the days trail runs on the way home on a long curved stretch of highway the CV started popping, I pulled over, removed the axle assembly and re-installed a outer axle stub.

Since then I have had empi axles on both sides of the front with no problems.
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Alaric.H
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon_slider wrote:
> I actually like that idea of running Empi axles. I would much rather replace an axle than a trans.

afaik In the 10 years that John Wessels has been using 930CV's in his highly modified offroad Syncro, with Torsional Axles, and 180ft lbs of torque, he has never broken a CV, nor an Axle, nor a transaxle.

I would say that he may be right in the belief that Torsional Axles PROTECT the Transaxle.

imo the Torsional Axle is the essential part of the recipe, for protecting the Transaxle, as well as the axle.

The upgrade to type 4 or 930CV's is to protect the cage from breaking under high angles, such as when lifting a van past 19.5" hub to fender..

just my opinions.. seek professional confirmation..

fwiw, I was in Bills Van on the way up truck hill and I got out when the axle failed. But I had no way to anchor the van and Bill could not hold the brake long enough for me to get help. I wish he had Brake Line Locks. (he had lifted his van to 20.5" I believe, with stock axles.. and had already broken 2 previously.. third time was the charm, he now has 930cv's, torsional axles, and dropped his lift to 19.5")

Im upgrading to torsional axles with type 4CVs in the rear, thanks to burleymotorsports.com .. even though I still dont plan to go up Truck Hill..
Johns van had a stock motor with a 617R&P and 230000 miles on it so it may not have 180 ft lbs of toque.

Last edited by Alaric.H on Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:40 am; edited 2 times in total
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alaric.H wrote:
Jon_slider wrote:
> I actually like that idea of running Empi axles. I would much rather replace an axle than a trans.

afaik In the 10 years that John Wessels has been using 930CV's in his highly modified offroad Syncro, with Torsional Axles, and 180ft lbs of torque, he has never broken a CV, nor an Axle, nor a transaxle.

I would say that he may be right in the belief that Torsional Axles PROTECT the Transaxle.

imo the Torsional Axle is the essential part of the recipe, for protecting the Transaxle, as well as the axle.

The upgrade to type 4 or 930CV's is to protect the cage from breaking under high angles, such as when lifting a van past 19.5" hub to fender..

just my opinions.. seek professional confirmation..

fwiw, I was in Bills Van on the way up truck hill and I got out when the axle failed. But I had no way to anchor the van and Bill could not hold the brake long enough for me to get help. I wish he had Brake Line Locks. (he had lifted his van to 20.5" I believe, with stock axles.. and had already broken 2 previously.. third time was the charm, he now has 930cv's, torsional axles, and dropped his lift to 19.5")

Im upgrading to torsional axles with type 4CVs in the rear, thanks to burleymotorsports.com .. even though I still dont plan to go up Truck Hill..
J Johs van had a stock motor with a 617R&P and 230000 miles on it so it may not have 180 ft lbs of toque.


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Jon_slider
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

> Johs van had a stock motor

thanks for the correction, I mistakenly thought he had a subaru 2.5

so, John has never broken anything, with a stock motor and upgraded axles and CV's
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