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mad.macs Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2007 Posts: 230 Location: Woolwich Maine
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:21 am Post subject: Propane tank restore (Eletrolytic Rust Removal) |
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I pulled the propane tank off the Van the other day so I could fix a sticky fill valve. I had considered sandblasting the tank while I was at it, but stumbled across this process of rust removal. It seemed so easy I figured it was a hoax, but after reading several writeups on the process I decided to give it a go. After all, I pretty much had everything I needed to do it already.
20 minutes of setup, 4 Hrs in the tank, 15 min with a wire brush. AMAZING!
http://www.instructables.com/id/Electrolytic-Rust-Removal-aka-Magic/
Started with this-
Tank setup. Used the Van's battery and a charger as a power source.
Obligatory 50/50 shot
Completed Tank
_________________ '84 Rivi Vanagon Auto Trans, Stock WBX |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15129 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:27 am Post subject: |
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very nice and semi neat method for those who are afraid to really attack the rust on their tanks mechanicly. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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climberjohn Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2005 Posts: 1840 Location: Portland Orygun
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Yahoo!
That seems to be a very crafty, easy and non-toxic way to remove major rust. Thanks for the helpful post.
-CJ _________________ '86 Westy, 2.5 Subaru power
Know your limits. Exceed them often. |
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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Propane tank restore (Eletrolytic Rust Removal) |
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I think it hoax! Notice the grinder.
Seriously, though, what about the paint that is still on the tank when you start?
Do you seal the tank with plugs, too?
I think we should make tank derusting a regular part of gatherings. _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17014 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
I Think We're Gonna Need Another Timmy. |
Thank you for posting. Once my tank was repainted and installed, I ordered these from Decals only. http://www.decalsonly.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/44
With the new fill valve and decals, the tank looks brand new. I have yet to have anyone question the missing placard that rusted off when filling it. _________________ ☮️ |
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buildyourown Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2009 Posts: 1668 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Curious what it looked like after soak and before wire brush.
I just did mine but I only knocked off the loose stuff with a wire brush and hit it with a rattle can. Mine was more dirty than rusty. |
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mad.macs Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2007 Posts: 230 Location: Woolwich Maine
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:59 am Post subject: |
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There is a black oxide coating where the rust used to be, That's why I used a wire wheel to remove it. The really heavy stuff just came off with a scrub brush, but I like shiney metal, so I wire wheeled it. I'd have taken a photo, but it would ahve just been a picture of a black tank. You can see the black band at the waterline, I left that for illustration.
The grinder is there since you have to clamp the negative lead to a clean ground.
I did get some plugs for the tank. 3/4 NPT, just to keep the inside dry. The action won't work inside the tank, and it probably isn't rusty anyway.
There was a bit of paint left, but since the rust had creeped under what remined it scaled off with the oxide that was under it. The process won't remove paint that has good adhesion, and won't remove any unrusted material.
Here's another FAQ.
http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm
I cut the placard off to get the rust under it. It's soaking now. _________________ '84 Rivi Vanagon Auto Trans, Stock WBX |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Volksaholic Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2005 Posts: 1771 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:42 am Post subject: |
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It's not a hoax... I use it on antique wood working tools and I've used it on rusted VW Bus panels too. The electricity will flow under loose paint or metal plating and the paint or plating will flake off with the rust. I have a few concerns with using it on the propane tank, though:
1. Fire hazard... make sure the tank is completely discharged and it would be best to fill it with an inert gas. For electrolysis to work you've got to connect a voltage to the tank and one to a an electrode... there's potential for sparks. One of the byproducts of this process is hydrogen gas bubbling from the electrolyte (I use a solution of washing soda... I didn't see what the OP used). Make sure the area is well ventilated.
2. This will knock rust off but it leaves the surface very susceptible to more rust. Make sure to clean it up and paint or rust proof it in short order. For my tools I usually just paste wax them... it leaves a nice dark gray patina.
3. I don't know how much material you can lose on a propane tank before it becomes hazardous to pressurize. Propane will pool near the ground. If you leave pin holes in your tank and it's discharging in your garage all night... you can imagine.
Some tips:
Use stainless for the electrode. You can use any iron/steel, but regular iron will corrode and leave a nasty, foamy mess in your bucket. With stainless you still end up with the extracted rust in your electrolyte, but it's not nearly as gross and messy.
Polarity matters: if you get the polarity reversed you'll end up removing rust from your electrode and your propane tank becomes the sacrificial metal!
For doing body panels I soaked an old towel with a washing soda solution, then pinned it between the rusty panel and a sheet of stainless. One van I did this on was a '73 Bay... sucked out seam rust and cleaned up some salvageable rocker panel sections. When I was done I coated it with rust converter, zinc based primer, and rattle can paint.
Paul _________________ 1988 Wolfsburg Edition, 2001 Subaru EJ251 |
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mad.macs Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2007 Posts: 230 Location: Woolwich Maine
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:54 am Post subject: |
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DOT Legal propane tanks are WAY over designed. That's one reason they don't require a Hydrotest like others. I've heard they are good down to 10% of the original thickness. My propane guy said he'd fill about any DOT tank as long as it holds pressure.
I could have interted the tank, I have both CO2 and Argon here, but the tank had been open to air for a week, and the holes were plugged.
Hydrogen gas buildup from the electrolisis could have been a problem, but it's in an open space with plenty of ventilation. _________________ '84 Rivi Vanagon Auto Trans, Stock WBX |
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Volksaholic Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2005 Posts: 1771 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like yours should have been plenty empty, and with all the electrolysis I've done in the basement I haven't blown anything up yet. I just know the hydrogen gas is one of the potential hazards with the process (one of the few... it's really pretty safe to do if you don't use a lye solution as your electrolyte) and I can just imagine the prime-time moment if one were generate a spark at the electrode, ignite the hydrogen, and have that ignite some residual propane. Don't get me wrong, though... I'm a big proponent of this process and I originally learned about it on one of the old VW Van mailing lists... type2 or vintagebus... the old timers like Everett and Al Brase known what I'm talking about! One of the cool things about this process is that you won't remove any good steel while getting the rust out of dents and pits like you will with grinding and sandblasting.
pd _________________ 1988 Wolfsburg Edition, 2001 Subaru EJ251 |
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mad.macs Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2007 Posts: 230 Location: Woolwich Maine
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, Washing Soda was used as the electrolyte. One $4.00 box will likely last me a lifetime as it only took a half a cup or so. I used a 20A battery charger and hooked it up to a battery and the tank with a 20A automotive fuse in between.
There are some cautions that go with using stainless as the electrode. It does work and the electrodes do apparently last longer, but it turns the electrolyte toxic, and contains things that should not be flushed down the drain.
I used some scrap steel I had lying around. _________________ '84 Rivi Vanagon Auto Trans, Stock WBX |
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Bman Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2005 Posts: 895 Location: South Coast, Oregon
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purplepeopleeater Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2005 Posts: 3117 Location: E. Washington
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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I did a write up on this on another vw board, I used about 2 cups per 55 gallons of water.
you gotta paint it right away or it will flash rust, it works great....havent thought about doing an LP tank.
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mad.macs Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2007 Posts: 230 Location: Woolwich Maine
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Bman wrote: |
Looks like you used a garbage can; how much washing soda per gallons did you use? Also did you need to suspend the tank in the solution or can you rest it on the bottom of the can?
Thanks. |
It was between 3/4 and one cup for the trash can, It won't hurt to put more in, it's not an exact measurement thing. It's a surprisingly small amount that is required. It also does not get depleted, you shouldn't have to add any more after you start, and the solution can be used over and over again. (Although it will look NASTY)
You could rest it on the bottom, but: You can't let the object touch the electrodes. The action will only work in "Line of sight" with the electrodes. I had a plate on the bottom of the tank connected to one of the electrodes in order to get the underside of the tank.
This Instructibles outlines the process really well. Try it out! You literally have nothing to loose other than the rust. (Just watch out for the hydrogen build up.)
http://www.instructables.com/id/Electrolytic-Rust-Removal-aka-Magic/ _________________ '84 Rivi Vanagon Auto Trans, Stock WBX |
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James 93SLC Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009 Posts: 937 Location: NE Ohio
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:17 am Post subject: |
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I love using this process. I've got a dedicated 5 gallon bucket lines with steel rebar.
Just set it up and walk away. Saves a TON of manual labor to remove rust, especially getting into nooks and crannies.
_________________ -------------------------
91 Vanagon Carat
93 Corrado SLC
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Photos: http://picasaweb.google.com/slc.corrado
--------------------------------------------------------
tencentlife "Sometimes a pooka is a problem and sometimes it's just a pooka" |
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Alaric.H Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2009 Posts: 2529 Location: Sandy Springs GA
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:48 am Post subject: |
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I sand blasted this one.
Before
After
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noganav Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2006 Posts: 1236 Location: San Diego CA
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the post. I tried this out over the weekend to remove rust from the grill below the Westy fridge. It did a great job. Thanks! |
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randywebb Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2005 Posts: 3815 Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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James 93SLC wrote: |
I love using this process. I've got a dedicated 5 gallon bucket lines with steel rebar.
Just set it up and walk away. Saves a TON of manual labor to remove rust, especially getting into nooks and crannies.
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what about the reduced coat from the former rust?
will it hold primer or powdercoating as well as a blasted surface? _________________ 1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans. |
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msinabottle Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3492 Location: Denver Area, Colorado
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:19 pm Post subject: The next step with the tanks... |
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The next step with the tanks is to fabricate and attach labels reproducing the original information, just so no one will give us grief after a de-rusting and restoration.
Has anyone done anything on that front?
Best! _________________ 'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence." |
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