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head gasket blues
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at your sleeve (picture above) this engine didn't had a good water/coolant mix, the rust shown on the (bad ha ha) picture tell me that this is why your have so much trouble.

Ben
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duderanchero
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ben, i think so, too. the PO seems to have been an even bigger doofus than me, and i blame him for most of the stuff.

i guess i should take the pistons out then? or would they rehabilitate themselves inside the engine with a proper dose of glycol?
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IdahoDoug
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To add a bit here, the type of force required to remove them is not just a yank or a hit with a mallet when prying on the tabs. It's a sustained high prying force. Like as strong as you can hold for a solid 15 seconds. Then go under and do the same. It's moving infinitesmally each time but it's the strong hold that seems to do it.

DougM
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duderanchero
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

believe me, i've put a ton of sustained force against those tabs.

i didn't do anything productive tonight. i think we'll just take the truck for this trip. bummer, but better than sitting around here forever. i'll pick up the parts i need in the meantime, and hopefully the work will go more smoothly in the future.
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duderanchero
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so, i gave it another go, and finally pulled that friggin' head off. this triumph of strength and perseverance was a rather joyous event. however, it would appear one of the sleeves came out too far (the other slid back with minimal finagling).

how do i know for sure if it's out too far? i crank the pulley, but the piston moves along with the sleeve, no matter how i finagle.

here's a picture:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and here's what i managed to pry the stuck sleeves with:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


thanks to everyone who's helped me out so far. without your reassurances that i could get the sleeves unstuck, i almost certainly would have given up. the annoying thing is, it was just a baby tug that freed them. if you have very stuck cylinders, i recommend (as many recommended to me) buying/inventing the longest, fattest, torquiest lever you can fit in there. no screwdriver i've ever seen would be capable of freeing cylinders as stuck as mine were.

i don't think that chisel's coming out of the 13mm socket anytime soon.

oh, and for your entertainment, here's what remained of the water jacket:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha ha ha, look at this poor rubber head gasket, I real joke.
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My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
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shadetreetim
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometime in the future I'll have to replace mine as well. Thanks for sharing your experience.
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duderanchero
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tim, i'm trying not to look too closely at the driver side gasket, as i'm sure it needs replacing, too. maybe i'll just use the right stuff instead of the rubber jacket on that side. i don't really see the wisdom in replacing an old faulty part with a new faulty part, but some people say it was the factory sealant used on the water jacket that causes the corrosion, but then why not just make your own silicone gasket (a la morymob) or use some good gasket maker?

i think for someone who has half an idea what they're doing (i don't) and a little bit of luck (didn't have too much of that either), both sides could be done in a productive day or two.

me, i'll take a couple weeks, and still not finish the job.
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Petervw
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

are you going to inspect to determine how deep the cracks are between the valves..
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duderanchero
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the cracks are there. a tiny fracture (<1mm) between each. i'm not gonna sweat it.
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Petervw
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

duderanchero wrote:
the cracks are there. a tiny fracture (<1mm) between each. i'm not gonna sweat it.
... I just went thru helping a friend exchange his pass. side head..had to add a little water from time to time because of a leaking rubber gasket also put a 100psi to the cylinders and it showed the very beginnings of a compression leak going into the coolant...still no problem because it's all part of the fix... the cracks between the valves very only hairline width, usually not a concern, at least for other vehicles, but once the valves were removed that crack went down 1" into the ports ..the cleanliness of the exhaust port definitely also showed coolant leaking ..so now we have a garbage head..I still went ahead to have a pressure test done anyway out of curiousity... hate to see you put this project back together only to find that your problem was not isolated to one area.. if I understand correctly, because of that piston sleeve coming out to far, you may have to take the motor out..brings in a whole new understanding on where you are going to go with this project...
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duderanchero
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's troublesome to hear, peter. i'm going to try to avoid dropping the motor, especially as i don't even have a working floor jack. of course, i also lack a piston ring compressor and other tools i'll need for the job, but hey.

i'm financially not able to replace the heads now, so i'm just hoping this fix (if i ever get it fixed) will buy me some quality time.
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xoo00oox
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you did pull that cylinder past the rings, the engine does not need to come out. You can make the chamfer at the base of the cylinder bigger using a grinder to make it easier to slide back on. Use a split type ring compressor.
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Petervw
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duderanchero wrote:
that's troublesome to hear, peter. i'm going to try to avoid dropping the motor, especially as i don't even have a working floor jack. of course, i also lack a piston ring compressor and other tools i'll need for the job, but hey.

i'm financially not able to replace the heads now, so i'm just hoping this fix (if i ever get it fixed) will buy me some quality time.
I feel your dilemma...
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Petervw
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xoo00oox wrote:
If you did pull that cylinder past the rings, the engine does not need to come out. You can make the chamfer at the base of the cylinder bigger using a grinder to make it easier to slide back on. Use a split type ring compressor.
.. I have no way to verify..but heard about someone useing a large size hose clamp...for the other barrel, put 2 head nuts on the longer studs, piston at TDC and slide the other barrel out useing the head nuts as a stopper ..turn the nuts out to create enough room to put a new rubber black ring on the base..
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duderanchero
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks, xo and peter, for the technique ideas. i can't exactly visualize either right now, but i probably need some black tea.
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morymob
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After u figure how to remove piston your patience may be tested even more getting the piston pin started into the rod, there is the pin clips that can be more fun. Not trying to rain on your parade but for a nubie this can be frustrating, but we all learned how so just keep trying.By the way idid just make up my own ring compressor to work, 1st style i had to pull cyl back off to remove it.
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xoo00oox
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No need to remove piston in this case as long as none of the rings got broken.
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morymob
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would remove piston to check rings for being stuck also after 1st motor i found putting piston in cyl and sticking out so pin can be put into rod worked best. Only once did i reuse rings on one side because of the situation i was in at the time. No parts available , rings free, rehoned cyl and it worked fine ,even comp on both cyls and i ran a couple yrs before sold.
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duderanchero
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

is it a terrible idea to run the engine with an oil scraper ring missing, or just a bad one?

i could almost taste it...

**there's a piston ring set on the way, if napa's not pulling my leg. i was mostly kidding about running without an oil scraper, but was unable to raise anyone's ire. of course, everyone else has probably got their nice, functional vans out on the weekend.
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