Starting issues - 1978 FI - Test driven!!

[brandt]

Greetings,

A few weeks ago a semi-impluse buy. After totally restoring a 1978 Westy about 10 years ago I sold it and have been out of the bus world for about 6 years. The new bus - 1978 Westy, good interior, ok body but poor repaint in white not original green, engine turned over, sounded ok, supposedly a newer rebuild, but wouldn't start. $1600. Towed home. Despite the time it takes it feels good to be back with a bus, especially with it not as my primary vehicle!

So the troubleshooting. Before I loaded it onto a trailer I did try to start it with starting fluid (yes I've since read to just pour a spoonfull of gas down the s tube). It would run for a few seconds and die. So that led me to believe coil, dist., points, plugs & plug wires are good and this is a fuel problem.

So I kinda thought fuel pump. Today I checked out the double relay using Bentley's great instructions. All checked out. Hooked up test light to fuel pump wires, all checked out, lit up while cranking. Put stick in AFM to open flap with key in run postion, heard and felt pump run on and relay click. Ok. Checked coil wires, green and white on the right post and the two black wires on the other, all seems well. Checked plug wires to make sure all were headed to the right cylinders and all ok. Pulled center wire off dist. and spark present, again points seem ok.

Fuel gauge does not work. Sender has access hole cut already. PO (semi-unreliable) thought it could even be out of gas. PO claimed it sat for at least a year and then just would not start. Before I tried starting fluid I did put about a gallon of gas in but no luck.

What else to check? I really want to hear this run and see what it sounds like. I ahve checked most of the grounds all appear to be ok.

Any ideas? Has to be something simple.

I do have new fuel filters and fuel line headed my way but still a few days out. Sludge in tank?

Thanks,
Brandt
Bluff, UT

[Daverham]

Sounds like you have good ignition, and fuel pump is working, but did you verify that fuel is getting all the way to (and out of) the injectors? Tried the squirt-in-a-paper-cup technique yet?

Your diagnosis approach sounds solid to me. And your instinct that it might be a fuel blockage seems reasonable. But where?

I've had fuel blockage in the tank outlet elbow before. You could start at the injectors and work backward, or if you have a pressure gauge, pop that in to the system in between.

[josh]

Sludge and debris in the fuel tank are a possibility and one of the few possibilities the Bentley manual won't help you find. Another is an old rotten wiring harness. Give yours a good inspection and ask yourself if it might be a good idea to replace it.

For the most part in your situation, I would get a fuel pressure gauge, a VOM and go through all of the tests in the Bentley FI chapter. You should be able to get through it in an afternoon and learn lots about your system.

Also eliminate any vacuum leaks. You should check the injector spray pattern while diagnosing the FI. Order some injector O-rings and replace them while you're in there. They are a common leak spot that is hard to find. Another is cracks in the S shaped boot in between the bellows ridges and inside the curves. All of the gaskets and hoses of the air intake system are also suspect.
_________________

[brandt]

[Wildthings]

Hook a hose up to the test port on the fuel rail and see how long it takes to fill a quart jar with fuel when you trigger the fuel pump.

I would suggest adding more than a single gallon of fuel to the tank and some FI cleaner as well. No use fighting yourself if you are effectively out of fuel.

Fuel gauges are cheap I paid all of $8 for glycerine filled one 10 years ago from a plumbing warehouse. Probably no more than twice that today.

[SGKent]

there is a thread on FI that we have started to keep all the FI questions in the same place. We see the same patterns over and over. yours is either the injectors aren't firing or you don't have fuel pressure. Here is a link to that thread. I will post some suggestions there.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482560
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[brandt]

Just a quick follow up. I have always hated messing with gas. Again this is a 78 w/stock FI. This ended up being kinda long...

I had a few hours today. Since all the previous troubleshooting I obtained a fuel pressure gauge online from Summit and some other parts, new fuel filters and hose. I hooked the pressure gauge up to the handy test port, turned the key to on, screwdriver in AFM to open flap. Result about 4psi. Hmm. blockage, no surprise.

I pulled the old filter and hoping just it was clogged, I expected at least some gas to run down my arm. Hose off, filter out, and nada, no gas. Kinda nice for a change but not really. Ran compressed air toward the tank and no change, but couldn't really get a good a seal either. I took off the hacked sender access plate and removed sender, with flashlight all looked ok but couldn't see the outlet. About 2 inches of fuel in the tank so not out of gas, no sludge or tar balls that I could detect. No rust flakes either, overall looked pretty clear and clean.

Next I went to the hose right at the outlet and undid the super rusty crimped clamps that I would assume are original. As I messed with it it started leaking so I thought the metal line from the outlet to the filter (also very rusty) was blocked and was to blame. But the more I tried to get the rubber hose off or cut it in half the more it leaked and the more difficult it became to be under the bus. It seemed the two metal lines were touching each other inside the rubber hose so cutting it hose was difficult especially given the splashing gas factor. In the past I have replaced pumps and filters with full tanks but this was worse because I could not stop the flow...

With a bucket under the bus catching the rainstorm of fuel I began to scratch my head. I really should have bought that nifty hand pump siphon fuel deal I saw at the discount store the other day. My nearest FLAPS is 50 miles roundtrip... I needed and really wanted to drain this tank. I thought about running a spare pump I had and sucking it all up out the sender hole, but figured the pump needed to be gravity fed and the idea of hooking it up to a battery didn't really appeal to me. I thought about a chunk of garden hose but didn't really want to suck on it to get things going. Did I mention how I hate dealing with gas?

About this time I noticed the rainstorm of gas had slowed down to almost nothing. The bucket only had about a gallon so the tank was not empty. I figured the crud had blocked the leak. I went back to work on the hose on the outlet only to have the metal outlet line that makes a 90 degree turn break. I found myself looking up into the metal line that exits the tank with not a drop of gas flowing out. The outlet is blocked inside the tank. There is still enough of the metal line left to clamp onto but just barely. It broke where it makes the 90.

It was getting dark and while I wanted to ram a peice of wire up there to perhaps unclog things I left it for another day and clamped on a capped peice of hose incase it decides to flow.

I really just want to hear this engine run so I can figure out what I am doing with this bus, keep, keep for parts, sell, playhouse for 2 year old son, guesthouse, greenhouse, business sign...

I know what needs to happen is the tank pulled, cleaned, and sealed and the outlet fixed... But before I put all that effort in I'd like to hear it run because it may not be worth the effort in the first place...

I guess my next plan is to ram a wire or pipe cleaner up the hole and continue to try and drain the tank. Then for testing purposes run hose continuous from the outlet stub to the filter like the 75-76 years.

Any thoughts? Many thanks so far.

Brandt
78 Westy with clogged tank
78 Westy
95 Toyota Previa
96 Toyota Tacoma

[Randy in Maine]

After you change the fuel filter, see if you can get the pump to draw out fresh gas out of a 5 gallon gas can (keeping in mind that 98% of all gas the fuel pump pumps ends up getting returned to the fuel tank).

[brandt]

Thanks Randy In Mane. I had kinda thought about that, just hang a gas can off the fresh air vents and drive around. Not really...

Here is a photo of my broken fuel line outlet, just enough to clamp but the tank will need to come out for a real fix.

Not a great photo.

A few more photos of this bus.

A bit of a basket case. Terrible white paint job, rust, bondo, no canvas, I can only imagine what this engine will be like, fingers crossed. Good interior...

[brandt]

Update - Finally had some time to hook up a gas can in lieu of the actual gas tank as the goal is to test the engine. Turned key to run, pencil to open AFM flap, and gladly watched needle on the the fuel pressure gauge move to where it should be, about 28psi if I remember right! Exciting times, much better than the 3-4psi of before! Put the air box back together and prepared for a start.

Turned key to run and noticed dim dash lights, barely turns over a few times and then not at all, does not start, weak... Hmm, dash lights were strong and I had the battery disconnected while this sat for a few weeks. Check battery connections, all well, get portable jumper pack, still turns over but very slow, Clean battery ground, clean starter connections, check trans ground strap and it pretty much falls apart in my hand. Hmmm? Look around for some sort of replacement but don't have a connector on hand large enough to pull it off. I now may just wrap the wire I have around the stud in order to test.

Any thoughts? Ignition switch? Starter connections? This bus cranked strong before I fought with its gas lines. I read about jumping the starter out. Any details on how to do that?

Again this is a stock 78 with fuel injection and no starter relay installed.

I wish there was a "my bus does not start" sticky on better yet a flow chart...

I plan to order new ground straps and cables.

Thanks

[brandt]

I just put a multi tester on the battery and had 12.1 volts.

I going to rig a temp trans ground strap and see what happens.

[brandt]

rigged a temp trans ground strap (a cut off battery cable with the end wrapped around the stud by the swing arm). There is no change, still slow to turn over, and only turns over a few times...

I keep thinking there is some issue with the starter connections or ignition switch.

thanks

[Westfabulous]

Have you tried turning it by hand? ie: wrench on the alternator nut....turn clockwise.

Are you sure about your battery cables? Clean and good connection?
_________________
*****************


"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today."

[1975 Kombi]

Alt might be seizing. Also use an extra set of jumper cables to ground from the battery to the frame and engine. Run a wire from the starter solenoid to touch the battery + to start the motor to elininate the ignition. Just some ideas.
_________________
Brett

“He’s decieving you boy! Reach into his pocket and take what he’s got.” Mr. Crabbs.

75 Westy auto
03 Jetta TDI
71 SB
74 Westy
Licensed pilot (single engine land VFR)
--
Rust In Pieces: 72 Bug, 73 Bug, 81 Rabbit LS D 2D, 83 Rabbit D 2D, 84 Jetta TD GL, 85 Jetta D, 68 Z28 RS 302, 91 Passat 16v

[brandt]

thanks for the tips.

Tomorrow I am certainly going to try the added jumper cable ground trick.

westfabulous - I'm not 100% on my wires, especially near the starter, CV boot torn and grease thrown all over. Engine turns freely and the starter circuit worked great before I dealt with clogged gas tank outlet and lines. Something got bumped or ?

Also, today when I added my jumper pack thinkng the battery was dead I just hooked neg to the battery rather than the engine or frame so that ground/connection could still be the weak link.

And Ratwell has a good WW article on jumping the starter so plan to try that too!

I have no idea how long this bus sat neglected, unreliable seller, but fun trying to bring it back to life. Thanks for the help.

[WhirledTraveller]

12.1 Volts is not good. A charged battery rests at around 12.7 volts. 12.1 represents about 25% charged.

I'm guessing the battery is part of your issue.
_________________
1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam.

[brandt]

Many thanks on the 12.7 volts vs 12.1 volts.

The big news is that I got it to start this morning. It took a lot of love and was quite noisy but it finally started and idled.

I figured the battery was part of the issue and although I had it hooked up to my more portable jumper battery pack I decided to hook it up to my other vehicle. After being hooked up for a bit it began to crank with more normal gusto and eventually started.

Unfortunately, just as the engine was warming up my 2 gallon gas can had emptied (with most the gas being recirc into the currently non-draining gas tank) and I was out of time (wife, two year old, chores...).

I have the battery plugged into a charger and will charge it overnight. It was 12.26 volts when I put it on.

Perhaps tomorrow I'll try to unclog the fuel tank outlet, drain it, and hook it all back up in a loop so I can let the engine run longer and perhaps get the lifters pumped up and listen better...

I also tried the added jumper cable for an extra ground from battery to frame, it made no difference, I also jumped the starter - big + post to ignition spade terminal, that produced the same results as if using the key, I also jumped the solenoid and the big + post and whirrrr, sounded fine and fast. Checked voltage and starter as well and has the same as at the battery.

Thanks for all the help.

[Westfabulous]

Make sure you disconnect the battery when charging.
_________________
*****************


"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today."

[brandt]

Fabulous, thanks, I did.

I just tried to get a photo of the tank outlet by looking in through the sender hole. The angles are just off enough that it doesn't line up to see in there. I'm tempted to enlarge the P.O. hack job access hole so I can see the outlet. I was hoping that with a camera I could see but I couldn't get enough light and the camera in line at the same time and gave up.

All the fuel in the tank appears to be liquid and I think something is just sitting over the opening, like a part of a broken gas cap or some such. As the outlet elbow is broken off I plan just stick a piece of wire up there and I bet it will flow. Tomorrow maybe.

[Westfabulous]

Well, I guess you could disconnect the battery, slide underneath, pull the rubber fuel line off the metal spigot at the bottom of the tank, and drain it through a fat hose into a gas can. If it's plugged, maybe slide something plastic (not metal) and thin through the spigot and see if it unplugs it. Wear goggles and protective clothing. Stay away from spark and ignition sources. Hope and pray that's all it takes.
_________________
*****************


"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today."