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Wiring help (Watson kit)
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schadenfreude
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

case in point the silly ash tray ground in my 68
what a joke that is, (GONE)
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Vinnems
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A ground bar is a good idea, since I have a big hole where my original fuse panel was. Should fill it with something.
Oh, and this kit isn't meant to work with existing wiring. If you go to their site and read their crappy walkthrough, first thing they do is straight tear out all the wiring.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, just got off the phone with Watson. Since I have a dual circuit master cylinder with two switches, he said I have to split the brake wires and have them both go to the corresponding switches. Questions:
1. The switch has three prongs. Following the wiring diagram, it looks like one prong on each (black with red stripe wire) is simply routed to the back of the car to the test computer thing. Can that just be left out?
2. Since the brake light switches are wired so they connect to each other, does that mean if one of the switches is bad, that the tail lights won't work? Watson guy was wondering why they would use two brake light switches instead of one. This is the only reason i can figure, because if one goes out it means one circuit in your MC is out possibly. Anyone learn me on this?

Need to go buy more connectors (not enough provided Confused Mad ) but I'm pretty much done with bag C. I'm going to draw a better diagram on how to wire this all up so those of us with late model Beetles will have a better chance. fcl's diagrams are good, but there's some other stuff that needs to be done.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vinnems wrote:
OK, just got off the phone with Watson. Since I have a dual circuit master cylinder with two switches, he said I have to split the brake wires and have them both go to the corresponding switches. Questions:
1. The switch has three prongs. Following the wiring diagram, it looks like one prong on each (black with red stripe wire) is simply routed to the back of the car to the test computer thing. Can that just be left out?
2. Since the brake light switches are wired so they connect to each other, does that mean if one of the switches is bad, that the tail lights won't work? Watson guy was wondering why they would use two brake light switches instead of one. This is the only reason i can figure, because if one goes out it means one circuit in your MC is out possibly. Anyone learn me on this?

Yes, two brake switches... one for each MC piston (front/rear). Since they are pressure switches, if one piston fails, the switch for that piston will no longer work. The switches are also used for the brake warning lamp. If one switch (or brake circuit) fails the brake warning lamp becomes a 3rd brake light.
The Watson kit assumes there is a single momentary mechanical switch which is activated by the brake lever. This is not the case with a Beetle.

Simply split the orange wire before the switch to power BOTH brake switches. This wire should connect to terminal #82a of each switch. If you have the old brake switch connectors, splice the orange wire into the black wire of the connector.
Then take the two outputs (#81) and bring them together into one wire that runs to the rear. The black/red wire(s) goes to the brake lights in the rear as well as the test plug. Once it gets into the engine compartment the black/red wire splits again into a left and right side.


Since the switches are wired in parallel, if one fails the other will still power the brake lights. This is the redundancy built in by VW (in most other cars the brake lights stop working if a brake switch fails).
See this diagram from Speedy Jim's site for all the specifics... it even shows how the brake warning lamp works. I'd suggest using the stock brake switch connectors/boots to keep the switches clean and make the wiring easier.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK that diagrams really helps. Thanks for that, ashman.
In Watson kit terms, the red/black wire would be the white wire, the black wire would be orange, and the red wire isn't really there, but if you say 81 acts like a third brake light, a light blue wire is included for an actual third tail light that I can just use.
I don't know if the original VW wiring is like this, but the brake light wire from the fuse box is also wired into the dome light in the car, which is wired to the door jamb switch, in the Watson kit. I guess it runs at the same amperage or something.
Oh, and for those wanting to know what they are getting into better, here is the complete wiring diagram of the Watson kit:
http://www.americanautowire.com/PDFLink/92964974%20500408%20IN.pdf
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vinnems wrote:
In Watson kit terms, the red/black wire would be the white wire, the black wire would be orange

Yes.


Vinnems wrote:
... the red wire isn't really there, but if you say 81 acts like a third brake light, a light blue wire is included for an actual third tail light that I can just use.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear.... when one of the brake switches fails (either physically or because of a brake master cylinder failure) the wiring will power the brake lights from just one switch, but the current running through the failed switch will turn the dash mounted brake warning lamp into a 3rd brake light. It only does this when one switch fails. The brake warning lamp only works properly when there are two switches installed according to the wiring diagram.


Vinnems wrote:
I don't know if the original VW wiring is like this, but the brake light wire from the fuse box is also wired into the dome light in the car, which is wired to the door jamb switch, in the Watson kit. I guess it runs at the same amperage or something.

This makes sense because the dome and the brakes will only occasionally be operated at the same time. And even if they were, the current draw from the two circuits would not overload the fuse. It is just a convenient circuit that has excess capacity to handle the small load of the dome light.
The original VW fuse box put the brake lights on the same 8A fuse as other things like the horn or the wipers, depending on the model year.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is confusing me. Can anyone explain what this is saying?

MOMENTARY GROUND Plug the connector end into the relay (location S), route wire to the turn signal switch and connect to a momentary grounding switch such as the original steering
column high beam switch. This switch contains two wires to the momentary switch. One of these wires is connected to the latching relay (location S).
The other wire is connected to ground. See the circuit diagram for connection details.

Is this saying to connect splice this wire into the ground wire on the steering column? Here's a link to the diagram for this specific part:
http://www.americanautowire.com/PDFLink/92965059%20500420%20IN%202.0.pdf
Also, I'd like to thank Watson for not including enough end terminals, so now I have to go track don't some more. Very professional.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The headlight dimmer switch is part of the turn signal assembly. I believe the writes for this is the brown/white wire, but you should confirm. When you pull on the turn signal lever it will close to contacts. This its the momentary switch referred to in the diagram. I believe it grounds through the steering assembly. Some model years may have a dedicated ground wire for the turn signal switch. Don't confuse this with the brown grounding wire for the horn.

This brown/white wire is grounded for as long as the turn signal lever is pulled and the contacts are closed (momentary switch). This brown/white wire is the "trigger" for the dimmer relay. The 5-prong dimmer relay pictures in the diagram is common to generic installations, but you will find them at most any FLAPS.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EDIT: OK, let me see if I can salvage this.
So I have a stock wiring harness coming to help me in connecting all the missing wires. And thank god. For some reason, I guess because Watson doesn't think they are important, no wires are given to hook up the hazard switch. They give you a wire to power it but you're on your own for connecting it. Jeez, this is a $350 kit and I've already put in an additional $50 in wiring and connectors, which I'd have to buy more of but I got a stock kit coming (another hundred or so dollars). They don't even provide enough connectors to do what the instructions say.
I take back anything good I've said about this kit. Just buy a stock harness and follow the wiring diagrams. Save yourself $150 and the aggravation of it all.
Ashman: SO I'm still confused. Should I connect the brown white wire to S on the dimmer relay, like in the original diagram? Because the Watson kit includes a separate wire from S to the turn signal switch, but the way you word it makes the wire seem redundant since my brown/white wire will reach the S circuit.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vinnems wrote:
EDIT: Looking at the diagram, found another thing that will be a pain in the ass. I have a dual circuit master cylinder, with two separate three prong brake switches. The kit tells me to plug two wires into my brake switch, and that's it. So I'm on my own figuring out what to do with the third prong on the one switch and what to do with the second switch all together (just splice wires to corresponding connectors, it seems from the VW diagram). Really annoying.



I have the kit and had all the "problems" you're having. Regardless, the master cyl. isn't a problem. one switch is piggybacked off the other with jumpers (the only reason there's two is in case one fails, you still Have brake lights). When I wired that up, I actually took that part of the original loom (the master cyl part) and spliced the new wires onto the end of that. It's doubly nice cause those old wires were all formed proper for the undercarriage
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, almost done with this kit. Two things I'm confused on now:
1. My turn signals. The big bulb I got, but the little bulb I'm confused on. It's connection is two little prongs, like half the size of a typical connection. How does this work? And how do I ground this light?
2. Grounds. Is each bulb ground separately? The 71 diagram is confusing on this. Just shows a thin line going from each bulb to the housing. How am I supposed to ground these?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vinnems wrote:
...no wires are given to hook up the hazard switch. They give you a wire to power it but you're on your own for connecting it.

I was looking at the diagram and there is just a single wire running to the hazard light switch. I wonder if this is supposed to be a simple ground switch? By grounding this wire the fuse box will send current through the flasher relay to all for turn signal lights? Check with Watson to see if this is how it should work.

Vinnems wrote:
Ashman: SO I'm still confused. Should I connect the brown white wire to S on the dimmer relay, like in the original diagram? Because the Watson kit includes a separate wire from S to the turn signal switch, but the way you word it makes the wire seem redundant since my brown/white wire will reach the S circuit.

Maybe you've already fixed this... the brown/white wire from the turn signal switch should go to ground each time the lever is pulled. If this works, connect it to the S terminal on the dimmer relay. Each time you pull and release the lever, current flowing through the relay will swap between 56a & 56b (hi & low) terminals. Even with everything powered off, the relay will toggle since the #30 terminal has constant 12v.


I'm not sure which big and small bulbs you are talking about? Pics would help.
For some model years the bulbs were grounded to the housings and the housings were grounded to the fenders. Later years had a dedicated ground wire from the housings that ran into the trunk/engine compartment where they grounded to a screw in the body. This kept the ground connection protected from the elements.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashman, Watson is very unhelpful when I call. I pretty much am given the answer "you're on your own."
For the hazard switch, check this diagram:
http://www.americanautowire.com/PDFLink/92965061%20500421%20IN%201.0.pdf
The one wire just connects the hazard switch to the fuse box. Wiring up each bulb is something I'm supposed to figure out Confused Confused Confused
Going to draw my own diagram tomorrow to make better sense of things.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vinnems wrote:
Ashman, Watson is very unhelpful when I call. I pretty much am given the answer "you're on your own."
For the hazard switch, check this diagram:
http://www.americanautowire.com/PDFLink/92965061%20500421%20IN%201.0.pdf
The one wire just connects the hazard switch to the fuse box. Wiring up each bulb is something I'm supposed to figure out Confused Confused Confused
Going to draw my own diagram tomorrow to make better sense of things.

Ouch! I was hoping there was some common sense built into the design... you already have four wires running to the corner turn signals... WHY run another four???
You will need a bunch of Y-connectors or splices to tap into the four turn signal wire.
You also need to be concerned that current from the Hazard circuit doesn't backfeed into the fuse box via the turn signal switch.

Early attemps to add Hazard lights to the early Beetle electrical system resulted in cars that could be turned ON without the key. By turning the Hazard lights ON with the turn signal switch in either L or R position, the power to the Hazard lights would backfeed into the ignition circuit. All you needed to do was kick-start the engine and you were off driving! Yes, you had to drive with your Hazard lights ON... buy you just hotwired the car by pulling a switch!!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so I spent a good part of today redrawing the Watson street kit to better fit the Supers. I'm going to go over everything one more time to check for errors before posting it here for more scrutiny. The one thing I still can't figure is the hazard lights, BUT I THINK I'M CLOSE!
Had an epiphany when I was reading the Watson directions and it said to hook up light blue wire to front turn signal bulb. Then it hit me that in the stock diagram, the front bulbs are wired to the turn signal while the rears are wired to the emergency switch!! Watsons kit assumes that the car is wired in such a way that the column turn signal switch ran to both the front and the rears, which just isn't so on the VW Beetle. That's why also they have the emergency flasher in Watson's diagram containing four circuits that simply went to each turn signal bulb. So I drew this up real quick, and it's where I'm left with one question:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

How does the emergency switch and turn signal switch come together so that front and back turn signals work in unison? I know it's not 31, because that's just a ground. Is it connecting 15 to 15? Or, most likely just looking at the diagram, is it running 49a from the emergency switch to the relay, and than running that to 54Bl on the turn signal switch? Is it connecting the +s? It's real easy to play connect the dots with the wiring, but I need to know what makes what work.
And if someone can tell me why VW wired things up this way, my brain would appreciate it. I mean, 15 on the emergency switch powers the fuel float thing? The brake warning light has power off the wiper motor switch? Is just because the wires ran by each other? Kudos to them if it was to save wires, but really, skimping on wiring costs is a bit much.
EDIT: Found out via PM that the Watson fuse box has a single relay for both the turn signals and the hazard lights, so the original hazard relay isn't used. At a loss now on what to do. I'm really hoping there's an easier way to put this together than what fcl had to do.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to confirm if BOTH the "TURN" and "HAZARD" connections from the fuse box (red and blue wires in your diagram) are "flashing" outputs from the flasher relay. Is the power from theses two sources constant 12v, or flashing 12v? My guess would be that BOTH are flashing power which comes from the flasher relay but are protected by .

As I see it, there are two ways you could wire this up:
1) 1-to-2-to-4. If you are using the STOCK turn signal and hazard switches... use this option.
One flashing power input, split into L & R and then split again into LF, LR, RF and RR. This is how VW wired the turn and hazards. If you have the original VW T2 connectors (4-way junction) you can easily splice the turn and hazard circuits together with two outputs for L and two for R.


2) 1-to-4. If you have a hazard and.or turn switch with four outputs, you might consider this method. This is what the Watson wiring diagram is suggesting.
One flashing power input (blue and red wires), goes into a switch and from there FOUR wires come out. Once for each corner. The turn signal and the hazard switch each produce four wires. You splice them together before going to the four corner lights.
To get the four outputs from the turn signal switch you will need to use the three (3) extra wires that make up the EXTRA turn signal circuit (grey or black??) Just as the main switching circuit has one input and two outputs (L & R), the extra switching circuit has the same.
In your diagram, the blue wire would connect to BOTH switching circuits in the turn signal assembly and there would be FOUR outputs.


NOTE: your diagram is incorrect that the input at the turn signal switch that connect to the L & R outputs is the 54BL terminal not the #30... not that it matters because I don't think they are labeled on the turn signal switch.
On the stock Hazard switch, it is the 49a terminal that will be connected to the L & R terminals when you pull the switch to the ON position.
30 and 15 alternatively connect to the "+" terminal depending if the switch is ON or OFF, respectively.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AggieDave wrote:
fclmscott wrote:

I have my other revised drawings if you run across anything else. And yes your right, as you probably figured out this kit is for american cars with a a few VW parts thrown in. If I had known then what i know now I would have gone with a VW harness.


I ended up getting a local hot rod shop that has a lot of experience running American Autowire harnesses to complete my install of the Watson "kit." Every other part of the car I had no problem completing myself, but adapting this wiring harness to the VW from their limited diagrams...well, it is hard.


Can someone please explain to me why people opt for this stupid kit rather then just restore the original harness and cean it up a little? Why try to make wrong parts work when the correct ones are available, work, and are cheap? I can understand switching to an alternator, but I don't get the popularity of a kit the seems so user unfriendly and has to be adapted to work.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swhitcomb wrote:

Can someone please explain to me why people opt for this stupid kit rather then just restore the original harness and cean it up a little? Why try to make wrong parts work when the correct ones are available, work, and are cheap? I can understand switching to an alternator, but I don't get the popularity of a kit the seems so user unfriendly and has to be adapted to work.


First off, I am not a mechanic or an electrician. I'm a computer geek. This is also my first VW car and first restoration/customization project.

I installed this kit because I was adding all sorts of powered options. I also wanted the convenience of ato fuses. I was able to install this kit without any problem. I worked a few hours a day for 3 days. It was in and working. I had no problems or issues with it. It has been installed for about 7yrs now.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found this topic on Shoptalk. Wish I knew of the forum. They have a dedicated electrical section filled with folks who have installed the Watson kit in a bunch of cars. Here's how this guy wired up his emergency flasher:
Quote:
I was finally able to figure out the hazard switch, by looking at old wiring diagrams and of course some good old fashioned guessing. If anyone wants to use their late model emergency flasher switch with Watson's Streetworks kit, here's how I rigged mine up:

R Hooks up to right batch of turn signal wiring.
L Hooks up to left batch of turn signal wiring.
30 Large gauge wire to Batt 1 on fuseboard.
15 Small gauge wire also to Batt 1.
31 to ground, as always.
+ is not needed.
49a to Hazard on fuseboard.

Everything blinks and works, and nothing got hot after blinking for 10 minutes, so I'll assume I got it right.

Here's that in picture form. The box of colors in the pic is a quick connect think Watson included to group wires easier and neater:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Also, I went a head and uploaded all the drawings I made for the Watson kit. Here are the links:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/905904.jpg
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/905906.jpg
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/905909.jpg
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/905911.jpg
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/905913.jpg
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/905914.jpg
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/905915.jpg
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/905916.jpg
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/905917.jpg
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/905918.jpg
I'd appreciate if someone could look them over and check my work. I label all the circuits and what the wires are, so it's easy to follow.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent diagrams. They all look good to me except one...

I have one question related to the turn signal wires and the wiring of the turn indicator in the speedo:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In the above pic, the left and right turn signal wires (violet & blue) are spliced together and run to the single bulb in the speedo. This bulb is connected to the 12v+ wire (brown?) that powers the fuel gauge and the other two indicator bulbs at the bottom of the speedo. The indicator bulb is looking for a ground signal to turn the turn indicator lamp ON. Your two wires only provide a 12v+ or OPEN signal to the turn indicator lamp. This shouldn't work.

One solution is to add a separate relay between the two wires and the turn indicator lamp. This relay would be powered by the 12v+ coming from the turn signal wires, but when the relay energizes it sends a ground signal to the turn indicator bulb in the speed, turning it ON in time with the corner lights.




Also, by splicing the violet and blue wires together, don't you connect the left and right side turn signals together was well? Do you have a diode on each line to prevent power coming from the other from back feeding towards the turn signal switch/hazard switch?

This may just need a pair of 1A diodes. Simply orient them with the stripe towards the turn indicator. This will allow positive current to flow from the wires to the turn indicator, but NOT allow current to flow from the turn indicator down each wire.
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