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kuleinc
Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2007
Posts: 1604
Location: East Bay Area, California
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 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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I can't say our water boxer isn't reliable, because it is, and it gets us around a lot. We log a LOT of hard miles on it. So far the hall sensor has died. My big beef with the engine is the cost VS. performance of a new engine, and the wonky non CEL fuel injection it is mated to.
When my engine goes (its leaking) it will get replaced with a subaru engine. Which I feel is kind of sad, as I like VW Boxers, they are just exspensive for the power you get, and good parts are getting harder to find all the time.
I briefly considered a 1.8T conversion but the trunk cover not fitting is a non start for me.
I also considered Diesel, but I have a gas van and thats more than I'm willing to do.
That being said we are going on a week long trip in April, with the Water boxer humming along at 3900 RPM the whole way (Hopefully.) I'm not easy on it, I'm putting a rack and rocket box on the roof, I carry a tank of water, and loads of stuff. I do 65 MPH up grades when its willing, and as fast as its willing when it won't do 65...
That being said, my other car is an M3 powered BMW hatchback. Poor Vanagon.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496946 1987 VW Vanagon Westfalia with 1.8T |
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Zero419
Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2008
Posts: 2160
Location: PA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:19 am Post subject: |
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My wife bought our van in 2000. Knowing nothing about it, we took it to a garage and were told it needed heads. The owner was asking 10,000 we got him down to 4,000.
We took it to a different local garage and had the heads done for 4,000 bucks. Sure we were ripped off by about 2,500 bucks, but we were young and did not know any better.
We got many, many miles out of that repair including a 15,000 or so mile cross country trip.
In 2010 I put an oil pressure gauge on the 2.1 and found very low oil pressure. I did a rebuild and spent around 3,500 bucks or so. (I don’t remember if that includes the German Transaxle rebuild). I only got 10,000 miles out of that and had an engine failure. It was due to some bad parts (reground cam and new lifters that were mismatched.)
This brings us to the present. I had put a lot of thought on what to do next. I could have spent another 800-1000 on some parts and put it back together. I almost did. It’s not going to happen. We are going conversation this time (Bostig). It is a huge chunk of money, but in the long run it will be worth it. How much is a throttle body for a 2.1? $125-150? A ztec TB is 45 bucks. How much are new heads for a 2.1? $500? You can pick up an entire ford 2.0 for 300-400.
It’s an easy choice to make once you sit down and think about it. My 2.1 was good to me, really good, But the parts are expensive, and the electronics are aging and becoming unreliable. I have ordered my Bostig kit and have purchased all the parts I need other then the salvage yard parts. I don’t know how this conversion is going to treat me, but I have a feeling it is going to free up time to tend to other areas of the van.
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1987 Westy Auto Bostig 2.0 Ztec |
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dubbified
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Joined: March 03, 2010
Posts: 1508
Location: Redmond, WA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:23 am Post subject: |
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For the accessories, and the block rebuild, all refreshed and updated as the WBX is going to get on a smaller budget, still ran me upward of 5K in the end, not even touching the trans costs.
The lady and I did all the R/R work, but the rebuild was done at a shop, right about 3500, that's not including all new bayside accessories. (we dont want unexpected breakdowns, and want to know the maintenance condition)
I'd gladly ditch the WBX, and go diesel, cause I'm stuck at 14mpg.
That's the real issue here. Mileage, Range. Even if you toss in a Sub, you're still getting horrid mileage.
Why do something if its only going to get you the same 14mpg.
A diesel mod is going to be more powerful, and get you better mileage, hands down.
To me, resource management is what a decision should be based on, improving mileage.. Performance? You can augment diesel with Banks Propane over diesel.. and bigger turbos.. and chips.
(Dons a Flamesuit)
I think a mildly updated TDI will kick the socks off any Subie motor. Yet I'm going to resign to being a sucker paying for that 14mpg.. and paying the man for my looong vacation coming in 60 days.. (wont think of a TDI swap with only 60 days to do it, or shakedown)
Last edited by dubbified on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kuleinc
Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2007
Posts: 1604
Location: East Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Concerning your 14MPG I think you need to drive differently, no amount of fuel choice changes will fix a heavy foot  I get 18-21 MPG out of my 168K mile original water boxer. But then, I'm also the slowest thing on the road. I find pushing the pedal doesn't really make the van accelerate any faster, might as well save some money on gas... 
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496946 1987 VW Vanagon Westfalia with 1.8T |
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dubbified
Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2010
Posts: 1508
Location: Redmond, WA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| Uh, its an Automatic.. 14mpg is about as good as it gets for me. |
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kuleinc
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Joined: August 10, 2007
Posts: 1604
Location: East Bay Area, California
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Zero419
Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2008
Posts: 2160
Location: PA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:57 am Post subject: |
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I remember getting 18+ mpg's with my 2.1 auto....
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1987 Westy Auto Bostig 2.0 Ztec |
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dubbified
Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2010
Posts: 1508
Location: Redmond, WA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Course, Its freshly rebuilt and very clean in emissions. Runs pretty good, accel is a bit flat. Tuned properly it seems.
From fill to Fill, I'm seeing right at 14mpg city. |
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presslab
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| dubbified wrote: |
| I'd gladly ditch the WBX, and go diesel, cause I'm stuck at 14mpg. |
Are there any viable diesel options for the Vanagon automatic? I can't recall seeing any diesel automatic Vanagons.
| dubbified wrote: |
| Even if you toss in a Sub, you're still getting horrid mileage. |
I get 22 MPG on the highway at 65 MPH; about 18 MPG city. 4 speed manual transaxle of course. I might even get more with a 5MT. I don't think that's horrid, not at all.
Maybe you should put in a manual transaxle if you're concerned about your mileage.
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1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| dubbified wrote: |
Course, Its freshly rebuilt and very clean in emissions. Runs pretty good, accel is a bit flat. Tuned properly it seems.
From fill to Fill, I'm seeing right at 14mpg city. |
You are on larger tires?
I see about 15, maybe 16 in town with the 4 speed manual pushing 29" tires.
HWY.. best case = 18mpgs.
Increased windage, bigger tires. But I am doing 65-70 all the time where I used to stay at 60.. 65 max.
That extra 5-10mph killed me before the big tires, too.
Windage and sitting at the lower end of the torque band (with big tires)?..
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-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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dubbified
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Joined: March 03, 2010
Posts: 1508
Location: Redmond, WA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:16 am Post subject: |
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diesel for an auto? Kennedy makes an adapter kit, so Sure! They're out there.
Yea, I'm pushin larger tires, 3.73 with that auto.. I've yet to take it on any sizeable trips exhausting full tank on freeways.
That van can rock 95 mph solid though. 
Last edited by dubbified on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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presslab
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| dubbified wrote: |
| You can mate a subie to an auto, a 20valve inline 4cyl.. a 1.8/2.0 4cyl, .. why not the 4 cyl (same block design for the most part) diesel? |
Sure, you can hook them together. But the gearing is all wrong! There are emerging options for automatic R&P but I don't think there are any suitable for a diesel engine.
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1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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dubbified
Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2010
Posts: 1508
Location: Redmond, WA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Truth be told, I'm more than likely to mod and go syncro, and ditch my auto entirely. I really do like the automatic with the limited slip and the R/P update, sure the RPM will be a little tall for the Tdi, but according to the many ALH dynos out there, I'm seeing I'm still gunna be getting better power and with that is gunna come the mileage. These guys pushing TDIs are upward of 30+mpg. Course, I'm referncing greaseworks and some other sites.
My preference if I am to change the engine is to stop paying 4, and soon to be 5$ a gallon for gasoline, and "hope" to get on with the bio fuel options.
Many parts made for Subaru engines, Bostig and others.
Its still a frankenstein.. and ya gotta pay to play. This wont change.
I still love my van, despite the cost to maintain it. |
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SCM
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3477
Location: Bozeman MT
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| presslab wrote: |
Maybe you should put in a manual transaxle if you're concerned about your mileage. |
You can probalby buy a lot of gas for what it would take to convert to manual. I could see converting for power/driveability reasons, especially if you can do the work yourself.
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'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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presslab
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| SCM wrote: |
| presslab wrote: |
Maybe you should put in a manual transaxle if you're concerned about your mileage. |
You can probalby buy a lot of gas for what it would take to convert to manual. I could see converting for power/driveability reasons, especially if you can do the work yourself. |
With the price of gas these days, you'll recoup the cost faster than you think. The manual transaxle in my van cost $150 from PickNPull. The other parts, maybe another $150. So that's 75 gallons of gas, and say a 4 MPG increase would save 75 gallons after only about 8000 miles.
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1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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Jedi
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Joined: October 23, 2007
Posts: 734
Location: Cool California
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:08 am Post subject: |
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What kind of MPG's do a new or old Subaru get??? The same a a WBXer when you put them in a 5000 LB ride. Here is a link to their most current tech and it is not that impressive.
http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/impreza/index.html
You may not save a bunch of money putting in a Subaru but you will make someone else a whole lot of money choosing to do so 
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1961 Westfalia SO23 Mango Green/Seagull grey
1961 Westfalia SO34 T/BW
1961 Westfalia SO34 SWR
1964 Westfalia SO33 pearl white
1965 Westfalia SO42 Velvet green
1986 Syncro Wolfram grey with black int GL
1986 Syncro Doka
1987 Syncro Sevana beige Adventurewagen
1987 syncro Sevana beige GL
1973 Pumpkin orange Thing
2 1963 Rag top bug's
1965 Manx
1970 Single cab
1971 combi
1990 Vanagon GL
2007 Audi A4 3.2L quattro |
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SCM
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3477
Location: Bozeman MT
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| presslab wrote: |
With the price of gas these days, you'll recoup the cost faster than you think. The manual transaxle in my van cost $150 from PickNPull. The other parts, maybe another $150. So that's 75 gallons of gas, and say a 4 MPG increase would save 75 gallons after only about 8000 miles. |
1) Lucky you. Good luck finding a Vanagon in a PickNPull in here in MT. I would be looking either at an entire doner van or, more likely, a fresh AA rebuild with Peloguin and mail ordered clutch assembly etc. Then I would probably have to pay for install.
2) Gas savings will vary depending on your driving lifestyle. At $5/gal gas, that's $375 dollars saved in "only" 8,000 miles. For perspective, I put about 2,500 miles per year on my "daily" driver SUV. The wife's Jetta, which gets the most miles, sees around 5,000 per year. Even when I get my Westy up to speed for longer trips I think it would take 4 or 5 years to put 8k on it - wifey and I just don't have the vacation time to be driving all around the country but we do have endless amounts of great camping etc literally within sight of our house.
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'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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goskiracer
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Joined: January 15, 2009
Posts: 339
Location: Oslo, Norway
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:17 am Post subject: |
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Well, my wbx is 25 years old and it's pretty BADass  in a 90's radical way. That 2.1 has pushed the van all over the west in every possible combination of road and weather. With a bit of proper maintenance these motors do some strong work considering the mismatch of their original requirements and today's driving demands. Most of these engines have over 4000 hrs on them... granted they are not aircraft engines, but for comparison an H-60 engine gets a hot section tear down every 600hrs.
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86' Syncro 2.2 Vanistan, WBXhaust, ski-pole shifter for +11hp |
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presslab
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Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:30 am Post subject: |
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Yes, we are lucky here! I had my pick of a few different transaxles. I can tell that you're jealous.
| SCM wrote: |
| Even when I get my Westy up to speed for longer trips I think it would take 4 or 5 years to put 8k on it |
In your case, you use it so little that even the cost of the transaxle is overshadowed by the cost of just keeping the van from going back to the Earth.
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1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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Ahwahnee
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Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 10299
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| dubbified wrote: |
| Uh, its an Automatic.. 14mpg is about as good as it gets for me. |
| dubbified wrote: |
| ...That van can rock 95 mph solid though. |
You've got a WBX w/ an automatic that you drive at 95mph? |
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