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fccperdiem Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2005 Posts: 107 Location: Ellsworth, Maine
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:27 pm Post subject: New 2017cc locked up during break-in |
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My new 2017cc locked-up with in 20-30 seconds during break in. I fired it the first time and the light/ gauge showed nil. Shut it down, checked my wiring, and fired it back up. Still nothing. I was waiting for the oil pressure light to go out and watching my oil pressure gage...chunk! I tried to turn the crank, but not happening. I failed to prime the pump, didn't fill the oil lines going to/ from the filter, or fill the galley feeding the pressure sender . Here's the kicker...I left it alone for a couple of hours, and thankfully it turns over by wrench with normal effort. My question is... if I correct my prior omissions, should I just try again? _________________ Eric
Beard Fire Metalworks
Ellsworth, ME
207-242-0016
www.beardfiremetalworks.com |
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jfats808 Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2007 Posts: 5022 Location: oahu hawaii
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Tear it down already. You have internal damage on your parts because of improper oil priming. Rule of thumb. When first starting a new engine, you always check each and every part of the oil system. Plugs and rockers off, sending unit out, and ensure oil comes out the sending unit hole during the pressurizing for oil step. Do not attempt to restart it again no matter who says so. There is already damage. _________________ 2276 IDA's 86C 11-1 DD !
2017 48 Trijet DRLA's W125
Rockstar Suzuki wrote: |
You might as well put 10 year build in your bullshit sig, as it will NEVER run. Also your a dick |
You can always learn something new, even from a fool.
Check your oil levels routinely! |
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bsairhead Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008 Posts: 3473 Location: viroqua wi.
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Why would you try again? You ran it without confirming oil pressure, it showed no pressure so you shut it down, you fired it back up and it seized. You have burnt bearings and or crank, after they cooled down you can turn the crank by hand, you still have burnt bearings. Tear it down and fix it before it's to late. |
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craigman Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 2397 Location: redding
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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It's done. Time to start all over.
Pull it apart, have the crank checked, clean the case and every other part.
NEVER start a new engine without priming the oil system. |
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MURZI Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005 Posts: 5063 Location: Madisonville, La
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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I just had the same thing happen..... Lost oil pressure during break in. Primed it and did all the right stuff. Had 25lbs just cranking it with no plugs.
Didn't lock up lost oil pressure. Pulled it down and center bearing is toast and bearing behind crank gear is toast. Oil cooler was basically empty. Oil piston up by crank is stuck up......
Any ideas on how to hone the piston bore.
_________________ 62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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HRVW Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2011 Posts: 2531 Location: Rosarito, Mexico
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like the bearings were in stalled w/o any grease/lubricant on them.
If the mains are shot so are the rod bearings.
Oil goes thru the mains...the crank and rod journals in that order.
Always remove the coil wire first and then the oil sending unit...place a small can under the oil hole to collect any oil...turn the key to turn over the engine.
With a oil/assembly grease on the bearings there would be no damage. |
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KopfenJager Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2011 Posts: 582
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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Fire her up and run her till she breaks....Wait you did that. Yup pull her apart and rebuild. |
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fccperdiem Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2005 Posts: 107 Location: Ellsworth, Maine
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:22 am Post subject: |
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I'm iclined to agree with you all. The safe/ conservative thing to do would be to tear it down and start over. However, if it spins normally now, what's the worst that could happen? I seize a bearing, or ruin the crank or case. I may have done that allready. The thing that bothers me is... what if I didn't? _________________ Eric
Beard Fire Metalworks
Ellsworth, ME
207-242-0016
www.beardfiremetalworks.com |
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MURZI Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005 Posts: 5063 Location: Madisonville, La
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:39 am Post subject: |
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You need to tear it down. Mine did not lock up and the bearings were trashed and the crank is gonna need a polish....not bad, but........... Also you need, as I, to find out what happened. I believe in my case the oil piston was stuck closed and only allowing marginal amounts of oil to the crank. _________________ 62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:49 am Post subject: |
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and what oil piston would that be?no mater where the pistons are stuck if the rest of the oil pumping system is working the bearings will still see oil pressure, even if the oil relief is open there is still oil pressure.do you think when the oil pressure gets to high and the relief open it stops the oil from flowing to the bearings???? not. |
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JSMskater Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006 Posts: 5362 Location: Murrieta California
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:58 am Post subject: |
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fccperdiem wrote: |
I'm iclined to agree with you all. The safe/ conservative thing to do would be to tear it down and start over. However, if it spins normally now, what's the worst that could happen? I seize a bearing, or ruin the crank or case. I may have done that allready. The thing that bothers me is... what if I didn't? |
no. see, that's where you're wrong.
you DEFINITELY have damage.
its not even a question.
the question is how bad is it
it spins normally now... who cares? it will spin "normally" too if the crank is sheared in half and you're only turning half the motor.
Seen it happen. _________________ 71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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MURZI Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005 Posts: 5063 Location: Madisonville, La
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:29 am Post subject: |
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mark tucker wrote: |
and what oil piston would that be?no mater where the pistons are stuck if the rest of the oil pumping system is working the bearings will still see oil pressure, even if the oil relief is open there is still oil pressure.do you think when the oil pressure gets to high and the relief open it stops the oil from flowing to the bearings???? not. |
Well then what is the explanation..... I need to know
Bearings lubed during assembly, oil system prelubed, 50 lbs initially. New oil cooler. Oil pump packed with white grease. Oil temps through the roof in 20 minutes. Oil filter was pressurized when I took it off. oil piston stuck in up position. All clearances checked with mic and dial bore gauge. _________________ 62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Tear it down and fix it.. It will just lock again.....
ALWAYS...... Spin up motor with PLUGS OUT to guaranteed oil flow.... If you use good assembly grease when assembling it, you can actual hear motor spin differently when oil pump has taken prime and is flowing oil... THEN its safe to put plugs back in and "light it off"...
Do not fire it off again without looking for damage because not doing so will only increase destruction and probable destroy more "salvageable" parts...
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:40 am Post subject: |
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MURZI wrote: |
mark tucker wrote: |
and what oil piston would that be?no mater where the pistons are stuck if the rest of the oil pumping system is working the bearings will still see oil pressure, even if the oil relief is open there is still oil pressure.do you think when the oil pressure gets to high and the relief open it stops the oil from flowing to the bearings???? not. |
Well then what is the explanation..... I need to know
Bearings lubed during assembly, oil system prelubed, 50 lbs initially. New oil cooler. Oil pump packed with white grease. Oil temps through the roof in 20 minutes. Oil filter was pressurized when I took it off. oil piston stuck in up position. All clearances checked with mic and dial bore gauge. |
S#!* happens....
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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fccperdiem Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2005 Posts: 107 Location: Ellsworth, Maine
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Damn, logic sucks. Thanks, guys. Let the tear down begin... _________________ Eric
Beard Fire Metalworks
Ellsworth, ME
207-242-0016
www.beardfiremetalworks.com |
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MURZI Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005 Posts: 5063 Location: Madisonville, La
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Dale M. wrote: |
Tear it down and fix it.. It will just lock again.....
ALWAYS...... Spin up motor with PLUGS OUT to guaranteed oil flow.... If you use good assembly grease when assembling it, you can actual hear motor spin differently when oil pump has taken prime and is flowing oil... THEN its safe to put plugs back in and "light it off"...
Do not fire it off again without looking for damage because not doing so will only increase destruction and probable destroy more "salvageable" parts...
Dale |
Did this.......
And sorry for the highjack, but thought you and I could both learn something _________________ 62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4026 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:02 am Post subject: |
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MURZI wrote: |
Dale M. wrote: |
Tear it down and fix it.. It will just lock again.....
ALWAYS...... Spin up motor with PLUGS OUT to guaranteed oil flow.... If you use good assembly grease when assembling it, you can actual hear motor spin differently when oil pump has taken prime and is flowing oil... THEN its safe to put plugs back in and "light it off"...
Do not fire it off again without looking for damage because not doing so will only increase destruction and probable destroy more "salvageable" parts...
Dale |
Did this.......
And sorry for the highjack, but thought you and I could both learn something |
Did the drive tang of the pump come out of the cam????
Gears tight on the pump shaft???
Just giving some thoughts not picking on you.....
Dished cam with a flat oil pump??? _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
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Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
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http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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MURZI Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005 Posts: 5063 Location: Madisonville, La
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:53 am Post subject: |
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clonebug wrote: |
MURZI wrote: |
Dale M. wrote: |
Tear it down and fix it.. It will just lock again.....
ALWAYS...... Spin up motor with PLUGS OUT to guaranteed oil flow.... If you use good assembly grease when assembling it, you can actual hear motor spin differently when oil pump has taken prime and is flowing oil... THEN its safe to put plugs back in and "light it off"...
Do not fire it off again without looking for damage because not doing so will only increase destruction and probable destroy more "salvageable" parts...
Dale |
Did this.......
And sorry for the highjack, but thought you and I could both learn something |
Did the drive tang of the pump come out of the cam????
Gears tight on the pump shaft???
Just giving some thoughts not picking on you.....
Dished cam with a flat oil pump??? |
New shadeck 26mm. Flat cam gear. Even lapped the oil pump for zero deck. Aligned oil holes in bearings with case by hand. Doesn't make sense really. Only odd thing I see is the stuck oil piston. _________________ 62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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Mr. Unpopular Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3715 Location: Tampa Florida
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:31 am Post subject: Re: New 2017cc locked up during break-in |
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fccperdiem wrote: |
I fired it the first time and the light/ gauge showed nil. Shut it down, checked my wiring, and fired it back up. Still nothing. I was waiting for the oil pressure light to go out and watching my oil pressure gage...chunk! |
I don't think this is what they had in mind when they say to "stick with it" and "don't give up". _________________ "In any racing engine, the nearer you are to it disintegrating, the better it's performance will be"
-Keith Duckworth, creator of the Ford/Cosworth DFV |
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fccperdiem Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2005 Posts: 107 Location: Ellsworth, Maine
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: New 2017cc locked up during break-in |
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All too often, I read about people's problems with their VWs, but rarely hear what actually fixed the problem. I thought I would close the loop on one of my little issues.
To recap... I tried to break in an engine for the first run without filling the oil line from the oil pump to my remote filter. To make matters worse, I did fill the oil filter, but not the lines after it going to the thermostat and cooler . I fired it up, and it seized. The gurus suggested that it was game over, and I should tear it down and fix what I toasted.
After considering the wise advice from all contributors, I decided not to abandon the attempt, and to try and run it again. I went back and filled all the oil lines/filter/oil pressure sender galley and pulled the plugs (awesome suggestion). I cranked the engine until I had oil pressure.
I am happy to report that after 5 years, and +50k miles, the engine has been perfect! The oil pressure is still north of 40psi with oil temp at 180F. _________________ Eric
Beard Fire Metalworks
Ellsworth, ME
207-242-0016
www.beardfiremetalworks.com |
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