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Winston's Spring Mods II: Hatch Latch, Natch! (VERBOSE)
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msinabottle
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:24 pm    Post subject: Winston's Spring Mods II: Hatch Latch, Natch! (VERBOSE) Reply with quote

Having tuned out, plugged in, turned on, passed out...

Shocked

It was time for a fool to rush in where giants have trod and are probably still treading. The Neandersplitties and the Bay-Magnon Men had their wire loops to pop their rear hatches! The early Vanagon pioneers had their loops, or adapted hatch latches from other vehicles, or the last of those '90's era Vanagon interior rear hatch latches with the little rod you could poke to pop the rear hatch!

Then came the Giants... Titans... the Vanagon demi-gods! Chris, 'tencentlife' had come up with his own design! Chris, 'Mootpoint' had gone to great lengths to come up with his own design that LOCKED!

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=352626

So why did I DARE to think that I, the guy who filled Winston's engine with water (one of my very earliest posts, 'Winston LITERALLY Becomes a Wasserboxer') think I could do better?

BECAUSE I AM VERY. VERY STUBBORN!

Shocked

I had my own idea... I even mentioned it at the end of MootPoint's great thread... And... I made it happen!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It looks so easy now... HA! But it should be pretty easy for anybody dumb enou... willing to follow in my own faltering footsteps.

Shocked

All right, I had noticed, somewhere, that there are 'hatch latches' for boats and yachts and things--literally 'hatch latches,' in which a handle comes out to lift and lower the hatch, and which turn to unlatch --and some of them could even be locked to keep anyone from unlatching them at all. I was intrigued. Most of the other designs, from the loops on down to even Mootpoint's brilliant work weren't particularly good at CLOSING the hatch once you'd popped it open from the interior. I wanted that option. I could imagine wanting some extra air late at night, then getting cold and wanting to close the hatch again. Or just wanting to close it without getting out of the van.

And so... I began searching for the perfect locking marine hatch latch with pull-handle. And found... THIS:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Officially that's a Whitecap T-Handle Lock, Black/Chrome S-226BC Hatch Latch, I bought mine from Jamestown Distributors which was offering a break on shipping at a price somewhere around $20 dollars. It's still available. There might be better units for what I did, but I made THAT one work.

Lacking courage and drive, that latch sat around for literally years (2) while I puzzled and puzzled 'til my puzzler was sore for a way to get it all to come together. I had the trails blazed by the others, but the first step was to get up the courage to pull the rear panel and just look at the set-up. Managed that, had the right tools, didn't lose a single pin or any of those annoying plastic washers nobody tells you about on the other side of the panel for which you get to crawl all over the garage floor seeking until you find all 18...

Shocked

Well, there were shocks enough just pulling the panel--such as finding the cracked wood grain 'shelf paper' on the back of it and realizing that VW was using up the older 'woodgrain' panels in a rather practical way... Realizing that the panel was cracked in several places... Putting the yellow fiberglass off to the side for future re-installation... Removing the latch mechanism inside the hatch itself with a thumb-ratchet and a 5mm Allen wrench head and realizing that it didn't absolutely resemble the versions from other designs...

Shocked

So... While still puzzling how to mount the thing, I temporized... I drilled a small hole in the metal tab on the latch mechanism that released the lock when you twitched it--seeing the shiny spot where the key-tumbler mechanism poked into it.

I got out the heat gun and spent the BETTER PART OF TWO DAYS melting the horrid interior 'shelf paper' off the panel so that I wouldn't have to look at it peeling and getting filthy every time I slept back there, and peeling off the horrid 'shelf paper' on the other side so that I could find and do something about the cracks I could tell where there in the panel... It took a LONG time, and as I worked outside in this rotten cold spring I realized that I was getting a SPRING COLD, this nasty one that gives you a sore throat for a solid week.

Did I mention that I had a sore throat for a solid week? The cold got worse and worse until I finally had to take to my bed not long after I got the panel sanded and the first of three coats of Krylon Almond spray enamel on the side that would be facing into the van:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I didn't bother scraping off the glue on the panel, that just paints over, and the resulting finish under the enamel was even ENOUGH. While I coped with the throat and the weakness and the sleeplessness caused with what I belatedly realized were ALLERGIES on TOP of the dratted cold...

Evil or Very Mad

I tried to figure out how I was going to mount that hatch latch and connect it to the hole I'd drilled in the latch tab. The orignal plan had been to laminate more wood on to the back of the panel--no, the edges would still have been too thin, particularly because I put in the two stiff hatch supports right after I bought Winston, also, the Whitecap would have to be off-center however I mounted it because the central hatch support got in the way. I also wanted the mechanism high enough so that I could get to it with the bed in place.

I thought about building a wooden bracket to fit inside the hatch... I thought about fabricating a sheet metal bracket... and I expressed my woes to my cabinet-making friend (You've heard of him before) who looked at the Whitecap, and the central hatch support, and said,

'Why don't you just use a 2 1/2" 'U' bolt?'

Shocked

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There was even a hole of almost the right size for the 3/8" hole I found already on the passenger's side of the hatch support, and a Harbor Freight Step Drill and a few minutes work soon after I recovered and the U bolt was in place around the Whitecap. You can see, by the way, the keyhole that keeps the handle from rotating when the key's out under the 'T' handle itself. It's mildly annoying that the key has to be IN the Whitecap for the handle to turn--that turns the tab on the far side of the mechanism--but I got some spare keys made and will keep one on hand at all times.

The same wise friend also noted that I would want nuts and fender washers on either side of the holes I would cut, and I decided to guard against vibration and rattling with neoprene washers on both sides, you can see them in the picture above.

I also got heavy rough-edged nuts for the interior connection. You can see that slight notch in the hatch support that put the inner plate of the U-bolt at a slight angle, but by the time I was finished tightening the U-Bolt down from both sides, things were pretty firm! I had to use the thumbwheel ratchet on the inside nuts, I just couldn't get anything else in there.

Now, before all that I knew I had to drill a hole through the tab on the end of the Whitecap, which is VERY adjustable, it threads onto the all-thread coming out of the assembly and you lock it down with an Allen screw in whatever position needed. There were even four nearly-drilled holes on the end of that, there must be a yachting reason of which I am unaware, but it made THAT job more easy. Relatively, that's hard metal--zinc, I think.

Then I got ready to thread a ring bolt though the tab on the latch assembly. I wanted my own steel cable (thank you, Chrises, and all others who have gone before!) well away from where the tumbler mechanism of the outer lock snapped that catch. I ruined my Gearhead Friend across the street's Sunday by begging him to tap the hole to 8-32 thread so we could screw the I-bolt right into the hole. We temporarily and annoyingly lost the I-bolt, we couldn't find other things, but we did use Loc-Tite and it and stainless steel nuts on either side threaded right in. You get your best look at the eye bolt in this shot:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I discovered that there was no way to use the eye bolt to snap the catch open with the bolt BEHIND the tab... but there was just... enough... room... on the side FACING the outer hatch (I had put my hole well away from the shiny spot on the tab) to put the ring bolt there. I took a piece of string and pulled. It snapped the latch open. Well, well, well...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After that it was a matter of cutting the cable, not easy, threading the cable through the two aluminum ferrules and the tiny hole in the Whitecap's tab, even less easy, getting the position of the tab and ferrules just right, hard, crushing the ferrules, harder still, I used channel locks... Tightening the plastic retaining nut around the Whitecap so that the assembly gripped onto the U-Bolt (I used a sink drain wrench, which was perfect for the job)...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Tested it and turned the handle. It worked. It worked WELL. It worked reliably. It did NOT interfere with the function of the exterior lock. Then I realized several things.

One, the pulling on the handle of the Whitecap was going to put a fair amount of strain on the interior hatch support. Remember my question about riveting it or gluing it into place? The same engineering friend who'd warned me about sulfiting of the Odyssey auxiliary battery warned me that if VW hadn't thought it good to rivet that support in place, I shouldn't, either. The panel could distort when the outer skin warmed up at a different rate than the interior steel!

Shocked

The original adhesive holding it all together had already fallen out, I found the pieces in the bottom of the hatch. You can see it missing in this shot:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Hence, a trip to NAPA for a tube of 3M Super Weatherstripping Adhesive, as my friend noted, the glue is designed to hold stuff to metal, and doesn't care if it's holding METAL to metal, and should still flex at least as much as the original cement did.

My friend also noted that the Super Weatherstripping Adhesive, being solvent-based, doesn't need an absolutely clean surface to function--unlike panel adhesive proper. There was no way with the hatch intact to clean the areas whence the original adhesive had fallen.

By the way, that's my 'YOU'RE BACKING TOO FAR, IDIOT' early warning system laying against the beam in the picture. I hit that nylon rod in the copper loops, it rattles, and I can adjust how far it sticks out before it hits Winston.

Boy did THAT work. I rather cleverly used every heavy magnet I had to 'clamp' the bond through the hatch, but by the end of the second day's set, the glue was so firm that the inner hatch support didn't flex A BIT when I pulled down on the Whitecap's handle. I am fortunate in my friends!

I mentioned realizing SEVERAL things. One was that I needed to re-grease the old hatch mechanism, I cleaned it out with parts cleaner and then re-lubricated things with white lithium grease in a fiberglass repair syringe I obtained for a very similar purpose. I also realized that the level of the Whitecap would be BELOW the level of the hatch's interior panel--since it was gripping the central hatch support and there was no way to adjust it. The nut at the back of the Whitecap was designed to lock the assembly to a wooden panel against the ferrule on the top of the mechanism, it was now holding the ferrule against the U-Bolt.

I would need to cut a hole in the panel. I had anticipated that, in fact I'd had the rather clever idea of cutting a 2 1/2" plug of wood and putting a pencil in the plug's central drill hole to tell me exactly where the center of the hole I'd have to cut would be. Alas, the whole thing was assembled and in place by the time I was ready to cut the hole. That left only VERY CAREFUL measurement to fit the hole over where the Whitecap would be.

I'd already glued thin patching veneer over the cracks on the back of the panel, which had finally received its second coat of enamel. I drew a line on the back from the nearest two panel pin holes, measured off of that to the Whtiecap in place, measured again, made orienteering marks on the back of the panel, measured again, eyeballed, realized that I'd gone AWAY from the central hatch support instead of toward it...

Shocked

Started over. measured again, eyeballed again, it looked good, got out my hole saw kit, very, very very carefully cut a 2 1/2" hole in the spot my measurements suggested...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and realized that I couldn't pull the 'T' handle out through the 2 1/2" hole. I was heading for my Dremel and a very ugly cut when I remembered the last-ditch weapon of the hopeless home mechanic...

DUCT TAPE!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

In less-allusive words, I duct-taped the plug I'd cut out of the handle back in place and used the 3" hole saw centered on the same point and that fixed EVERYTHING. I drilled the central hole in both cuts from the back, where the marks were, then switched over to do the main cut on the interior side to avoid splintering. Not a bad thing that the cut went through the most damaged parts of the panel.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Final coat of paint... Got the edges of the hole... Let that dry overnight and while I was getting ready to put it all back together I had the happy idea of aluminum-taping pieces of foil-and-bubble-wrap insulation against the rear hatch metal for extra sound and heat insulation:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I cleaned the inside area with acetone and put the old fiberglass back after the new layer of insulation was back in place. I had to notch the fiberglass a bit to make way for the Whitecap and cable.

It works. It works well. I think I'll get the end of a 3" shipping tube to put in the hole in the panel, which will hide the Whitecap, not that it's all that ugly, but a cover of some kind will also keep dust and things out from the inside of the hatch and make the whole installation look more professional.

It is surprisingly easy to pull the hatch down even over the resistance of the two 'strong' hatch supports with the Whitecap's handle. I put a spare key for the Whitecap in a magnetic key box behind the wardrobe cabinet. I am REALLY exhausted. As are you, probably, if you've read one or both of these posts this far.

But--yaaaaaaaay!

Best!
_________________
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many ways, but never, never, never in silence."


Last edited by msinabottle on Wed May 18, 2011 11:58 pm; edited 3 times in total
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work!!

On the finish picture,it looks flush with the panel,but on your work progress it looks like recessed.
How did you do it flush?
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:52 pm    Post subject: Magic! Reply with quote

It's an Illu-hoo-hoo-sion!

Shocked

It isn't flush. It's about 3/4" of an inch beneath the level of the panel. A cover of some kind that will friction fit into that 3" hole (suggestions welcome, the one sure thing so far is the end of a 3" I.D. packing tube) will hide the entire mechanism, not, as I said, that it's particularly ugly.

But it only looks flush in that last, straight-on shot.

Best!
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the industry,they have some kind of finish washers for fake ceilings for sprinklers and lights,that might do the work for ya (there is a sleeve on the washer)

Bye!
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice writeup!

<bookmarked>
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice!
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ALIKA T3 wrote:
In the industry,they have some kind of finish washers for fake ceilings for sprinklers and lights,that might do the work for ya (there is a sleeve on the washer)

Bye!


I think you can run a Google search for the term "escutcheon" for examples of such a piece.
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i really like that.. Laughing Try plumbing dept and electrical dept for a proper fitting escutcheon or cover plate.I'm sure you,ll find something that will work.
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Rob, back in my original posting about my Rube Goldberg hatch latch I said:
Quote:
Others with more mechanical engineering skills than I might be able to come up with something cooler.

You, sir have done just that. Great post of a great mod.
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Like Smile A good mod there for many reasons too! Smile
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MS, good to see you posting! Great solution!! I think there are MANY opportunities to cross over items from the marine world to our Vanagons. I've raided my sailboat's junk drawer a few times to fabricate something for the Westy!!

A couple of options I'll throw out there.

-To reinforce the panel, I would humbly suggest 3M Panel Adhesive

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


-For the cable, how about using a turnbuckle to adjust the cable? It would make the initial measurement a little less tedious, and allow for any slop in the moving parts over time.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What more could you want in a post?
One of the most elegant hatch latch mods ever
and a picture of the High Priest of Duct Tape
(Red Green)
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hiram6 wrote:

-To reinforce the panel, I would humbly suggest 3M Panel Adhesive

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I edited the post above to further explain why my wise friend advised the Super Weatherstripping adhesive--just so you don't have to look for it, Hi, it was because the Weatherstripping Adhesive is solvent based, and doesn't need an absolutely clean surface--unlike the panel adhesive. I couldn't think of a way to clean under the central hatch support.

Quote:
For the cable, how about using a turnbuckle to adjust the cable? It would make the initial measurement a little less tedious, and allow for any slop in the moving parts over time.


A good idea--that's what Mootpoint used. But, now that the first one's been done, you can come up with a pretty good idea of the general length of the cable from my pictures and trial-and-error.

The kind words and applause mean a lot, folks, I've received so many good ideas and support from you all. Thanks very much for the idea of where to find the cover, I hope to get such an 'escutcheon' soon!

Thank you!

Best!
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post! It is now on my 'to do' list. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 9:45 pm    Post subject: Winston's Hatch Latch: The Cover-Up Reply with quote

A trip the Lowe's provided exactly the right cover for the hole in Winston's rear panel, although it was in the last place we looked.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

It's always in the last place you look!

Shocked

Officially, that's a 3" 'Test Plug' fitting for an <ahem> drain line, 3" I.D., and it made a very tight, but movable friction fit cover for the hole left in the rear panel. I left just enough of distance between the rim and the panel for an easy pull-out, I suppose someone wishing could put in a loop of string or wire or something.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Wouldn't be hard!

Thank you for your kind words and interest. I was oiling Winston's vinyl, plastic, and weather seals today and had to use the release three times, having left his keys downstairs. Worked great!

Best!
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not just use a factory lock with the mechanism built in?

http://www.brickwerks.co.uk/shop?page=shop.product...d=tailgate

Or, just weld a 6mm or so rod with a kink in, onto the original lock?
certainly not rocket science.
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Half the fun is the challenge. The other half is the satisfaction of a successfull DIY project....Good on ya' Wink
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brickwerks wrote:
Why not just use a factory lock with the mechanism built in?

http://www.brickwerks.co.uk/shop?page=shop.product...d=tailgate

Or, just weld a 6mm or so rod with a kink in, onto the original lock?
certainly not rocket science.


(a) Because that part is not readily available in the US. And (b) if you not an accomplished welder, welding on a lever is a big headache. And (c) replacing the lock with an entirely different lock gets into re-keying issues. Not impossible, but still a pain.

In the end, I think msinabottle's install is a near perfect solution. Inexpensive, creative, and it works.
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't really have to be an accomplished welder, a simple tack would do, and it goes nowhere near the lock so no need to mess about there either.
All you have to do is tack a small bent rod onto what you already have and you are left with what VW intended, you could use some M6 studding even and put a threaded knob on if you wanted, I'm sure replicating what VW did is cheaper and easier.
The lever even pokes out of the factory hole in the tailgate pressing.
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:40 am    Post subject: Fixing after the Fact: Minor Blivet Reply with quote

Due to twice stupidly operating that latch WITHOUT the key in place (Once with the entire staff of Blazer Automotive looking on)

Shocked

I had loosened the latch from the 'U-Bolt' and, although it still worked, I felt uncomfortable about it free-wheeling around in the U-Bolt enough so that it COULD be operated without the key in place.

So, while I had the hatch open in the garage for other projects, I pulled the rear panel again, tightened the securing ring down on the hatch latch, first with hands, then with rubber-gloved hands, and finally with channel locks. It became quite firm, once again.

I didn't leave it there. First I wrapped yet more fusion tape right behind the locking ring, with the idea of gumming up the threads if the latch ever tried to work loose again, and then I used a fair amount of an old tube of 3M Vehicle Emblem Adhesive, designed to hold plastic to metal, between the latch mechanism and the 'U-Bolt.' It's... quite firm now. Just to forestall future stupidity, I also printed out a label that reads:

HATCH MAY ONLY BE
UNLOCKED WITH KEY IN PLACE


and pasted it into the cover with long-term storage tape over that.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I feel much better about THAT, now. I did find two of those blessed plastic washers on the floor today from the rear panel, I'll have to see if I can find the pins they fell off of. This week I tested how firmly the glue and fusion tape held the latch mechanism steady.

Quite.

Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."
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