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Van den Broke Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2012 Posts: 158 Location: Victoria, Canada
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 9:01 pm Post subject: New member with 1980 Vanagon that has severe lack of power |
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Hi all, a friend of mine just bought a 1980 Westphalia, manual transmission that had sat for about two years in dry storage. From looking at the Haynes manual and the Internet, we think it is a 2.0 liter, California version. It does have what appears to be an oxygen sensor.
We barely got the van home in first gear, it has so little power. We attempted to check the timing but it's a little confusing. The timing marks are on a flimsy piece of plastic that is attached by one bolt, squeezed under another. There was a silver paint mark on a very small notch, actually it looks like a small dent, in the rear periphery of the crank pulley. The mark is much smaller than the drawings of "V" and "U" shaped notches I see in pictures. When I turned the distributor to align with the 5 or 8 degrees ATDC mark, the engine will slow down and stall. It will speed up to what seems a good smooth idle when set to about 30 or 40 degrees BTDC. However, at either setting or in between, the vehicle has so little power that it can't get moving in first gear up my slightly inclined driveway ( maybe a 2 or 3 degree slope).
The previous owner said that this problem developed suddenly, and that was why it was parked. Of course, we don't know this for sure.
So I am hoping for suggestions on how to begin trouble shooting this frustrating problem.
We do have some mechanical ability, and replaced the faulty ignition lock, adjusted the shifter linkage, changed the oil and one fuel line and did other odd repairs so far. |
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reluctantartist Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2006 Posts: 1927 Location: Bloomington, IN
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Wildthings Samba Member
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Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50350
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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Pull the hoses off the distributor and rev the engine up to 3500+ rpm. You want the timing set at 28-30° BTDC. Now reattach the hoses and don't worry about the timing at idle.
Do you get any pulsation out the exhaust pipe? Any throaty sounds of the exhaust valves opening. If the exhaust is unusually quiet and/or makes a hissing sound then the catalytic convertor may be clogged.
These engines have lot of hoses and lots of accompanying vacuum leaks. Check everything thrice. |
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Van den Broke Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2012 Posts: 158 Location: Victoria, Canada
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:54 am Post subject: Unhappy vanagon |
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Thanks for the quick suggestions. The AFC manual should be very useful, I'll print it off when I get a chance as I can't do it at home. It does mention a few special tools, but I'll see how far I can get with just the multimeter and timing light.
I like the idea of setting the total timing at higher rpm, but I am back to the problem of not being sure where the timing marks are. I saw in another post that I should set total timing to 35 to 40 degrees BTDC when it is "all in" as well.
On other engines I have used a dial gauge in the #1 spark plug hole to ascertain TDC, but that seems very difficult on the boxer engine.
So I am still stuck with the problem of how do I find the timing marks? I have rotated the pulley by hand and carefully looked the entire periphery over and only found the tiny dent which I am not sure is a factory mark, even though the previous owner marked it with silver paint. |
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reluctantartist Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2006 Posts: 1927 Location: Bloomington, IN
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:37 am Post subject: |
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[url] http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FindTimingMark.html[/url]
That should help. _________________ 1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
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Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50350
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Unhappy vanagon |
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Ming wrote: |
So I am still stuck with the problem of how do I find the timing marks? I have rotated the pulley by hand and carefully looked the entire periphery over and only found the tiny dent which I am not sure is a factory mark, even though the previous owner marked it with silver paint. |
If you pulley came from a 411/412/Porsche it may not have had a mark on the rim of the pulley and the owner may have added a mark where he thought it went. The original mark is just a smallish "V".
Using the original book specs to determine full mechanical advance gives 28°-32°. The Type 4s and Porsches were specced at 27°. This is with the hoses off. |
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Van den Broke Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2012 Posts: 158 Location: Victoria, Canada
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:07 pm Post subject: Timing marks |
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Thanks Wildthings, I see now why the difference in total timing, as your way is eliminating the vacuum advance. Anyhow, I don't know what's been done to the vehicle, the previous owner couldn't even find it in the underground parking lot, so I take his info with a grain of salt.
It's raining here and we are having a kiddie birthday party at my place today so I won't be working on the Van today.
I wonder if someone has taken out the distributor and put it back in wrong- I once did this on my old Lada, I ended up timing it at 180 degrees out. Amazingly, it ran but badly and I couldn't get it back up the driveway at my friend's. So I have to absolutely determine the TDC position before following your instruction.
As for exhaust sounds, it sounds normal to me but I haven't owned a VW so I am not a good judge.
Reluctant Artist, thanks for that link to the timing mark. The link is broken, but I found it by searching in Google. I'll add that link:
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FindTimingMark.html[url][/url] |
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FNGRUVN Samba Member
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Joined: October 27, 2007 Posts: 2237 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Is it firing on all cylinders? Pull a plug wire(one at a time) and see if the engine stalls or the idle drops. This is a quick way to check if you have spark and/or fuel at each cylinder.
From there I'd do all the normal diagnostic stuff like compression test, leak down test if compression is low, and all the checks and tests that the Bentley or VW Pro Training manual lists. _________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin |
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Van den Broke Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2012 Posts: 158 Location: Victoria, Canada
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:15 pm Post subject: Further tests |
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After getting the Van home I pulled the plug wires off and felt the spark plugs. All were burning hot to the touch, so I figured they were all firing. I think we'll take the pulley and fan off to double check that they are installed properly. Looking at the "Find Timing Mark" article I am now anxious to check that they are indeed put on right.
We don't have a Bentley or VW Pro Training manual. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
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Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50350
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Does your fan shroud have a black cap right in the middle of its top? If so it is from a 411/412/Porsche and your fan may or may not match up with it. |
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Van den Broke Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2012 Posts: 158 Location: Victoria, Canada
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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I'll have to check for the black cap tomorrow, but in rereading the "Find the Timing Marks" article, I see that it is for 1972-79 engines.... is it still correct for 1980 models? |
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Wildthings Samba Member
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Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50350
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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Ming wrote: |
I'll have to check for the black cap tomorrow, but in rereading the "Find the Timing Marks" article, I see that it is for 1972-79 engines.... is it still correct for 1980 models? |
The timing mark is the same for all T4 bus and Vanagon air cooled engines as far as I know. |
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Van den Broke Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2012 Posts: 158 Location: Victoria, Canada
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Wildthings. I'll hopefully investigate the van later today as I am working on another car right now.
BC Westie, thanks for the PM. I can't answer you yet though as I can't send PMs until I am a member for 7 days. I'll answer then, but in the meantime, do you mind if I ask what city you live in?
Thanks. |
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Van den Broke Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2012 Posts: 158 Location: Victoria, Canada
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Progress!
I checked for the timing mark with the help of the "Find Timing Mark" page, and discovered that indeed what looked like a small sharp dent on the pulley was indeed just that- and someone in the past highlit that, thinking it was the timing mark. Checking very carefully I found the proper notch 42 mm from the bolt using the procedure on the "Find Timing Mark" page, and cleaned up around it, painted it and then sanded the dry paint to leave it just in the V notch. Then we set the timing to 27° BTDC at high rpm, distributor vacuum hoses off, although there was a factory dot at 25° BTDC.
Next I tapped in to check the fuel injection rail pressure- 35psi (2.5 bar) while cranking, but nothing when running! I double checked, and the fuel pump is off when it idles- yet it idles! I suppose just the weight of the fuel in the tank, since the van is a little nose up right now.
So I'll try to figure out this problem. I suppose there's a sensor that applies voltage to the pump when the engine is running.
I'm feeling much more optimistic now. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
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Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50350
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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There is a set of contacts in the AFM that should close when there is air flow through the meter. These points trigger the fuel pump relay which supplies power to the pump. The pump will run during cranking as there is another circuit that sends a signal to the fuel pump relay from the starter solenoid. |
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Van den Broke Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2012 Posts: 158 Location: Victoria, Canada
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:17 pm Post subject: Regress |
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Well I spoke too soon- the reason there was no fuel pressure at idle was because my friend had left off the connector at the AFM. When we reattached it, we got 30 psi at idle.
I did a compression check and two cylinders are bad. One is 40 psi and one 70. These two cylinders seem totally dead, no change in idle speed when both are disconnected. I checked the fuel injector on no.3, which sprays well. I haven't checked no. 2 yet as it's harder to get to.
Even with low compression I'm surprised these cylinders seem to add nothing at all, the van still can't get out of its own way. |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
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Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Van den Broke Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2012 Posts: 158 Location: Victoria, Canada
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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Well I've been off this board since my last post in this thread.
We gave up on the van and sold it off shortly after the last post.
But a couple of weeks ago another family member bought another one. Man have these things gone up in price! |
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weswsimpson Samba Member
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Joined: September 29, 2015 Posts: 191 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:07 am Post subject: Re: New member with 1980 Vanagon that has severe lack of power |
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For anyone reading about under-powered air-cooled vanagons, here's another source of information:
http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/index.php
Here's my two-cents:
I fooled around with an under-powered air-cooled engine for two years and couldn't get it running right. (neither could Colin from itinerant air-cooled!) I Even swapped a carburetor/intake for the fuel injection system, without any improvement. Without tearing apart the block, I think the problem was a worn cam shaft, or a bad-regrind done when the previous owner had the engine rebuilt. (There are no guarantees that if you pay someone to do a job that they do it correctly these days... )
I swapped-in a '93 2.2 subie and couldn't be happier.... well, I could have been happier if I'd done it two years sooner! With an air-cooled, it's so under-powered to begin with, you might consider doing a swap sooner than later and definitely if it looks like you're going to drop some serious cash... you'll be ahead of the game if you go right to the subie power. It's not that expensive if you do the work yourself and you do a basic KEP '90-34 2.2L kit. (I used the subie radiator mounted in the engine bay, and that kept it cheap and easy)
If you can't do the work yourself, you might want to consider if a vanagon is right for you... these things need constant troubleshooting and repairs! |
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