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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:23 am Post subject: Mostly Street Rack and Pinion Unit |
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I am getting ready to start a new lifted fiberglass Manx II buggy build in the next month. I wil be custom fabbing a complete tube chassis, so now custom parts will be incorporated into the build, and can be made to fit, not altering a pan to fit.
I have been kicking around a rack and pinion steering unit. I will run a 28 inch tall tire like a 225 85 15 on a 5.5 inch wide rim on the front and want a better steering system than a stock box so I do not have balance and wobble issues with the front wheels/steering.
This buggy will get a lot of road time, better than 95 % and a lot of interstate travel miles. The off roading will be slow, mild and not beat up my equipment.
Any suggestions on a rack for this type of use? I was thinking of a early 80's Mustang manual unit, but looking to see what else may be out there. _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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Mal evolent Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2009 Posts: 2912 Location: San Antonio, Nuevo Mexico
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Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:32 am Post subject: |
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I have often wondered if an MGB rack would work on a buggy. _________________ 73 Beetle Baja, Ghia front brakes, Type 3 rear brakes, 2220 ( 94 X 80 ), Weber Progressive, Bosch SVDA, '97 Mustang seats
Baja Bugs for Volkswagen Virgins: Index |
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fortydegnorth Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2005 Posts: 55 Location: Kettering Ohio
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Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:56 am Post subject: |
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I have an offroad rack on my rail. It's a 1.5 turn lock to lock. I will say it is still quite twitchy on the street. I've been to around 60mph and don't care to go a whole lot faster without some adjustments to the alignment or camber/caster. I have ram assist power too. A "street car" rack would likely be your best choice. |
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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I have been looking at racks, and wondering about a Vanagon r&p. Should be made a little rugged and also for the street, not too quick on the steering. _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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drs1023 Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2011 Posts: 1682 Location: Georgia, USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:51 am Post subject: |
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I run a mid-70's Capri rack & pinion on my woods buggy. My buggy is a '63 center tunnel with everything else fabricated onto it. I DON'T recommend this rack for highway use. Maybe it's because of the apparatus I had to make to get the right turning direction in my steering wheel (explained below), maybe it's alignment issues, or maybe it's the almost 3.5 turns lock to lock. In any case, it works in the dirt, but is squirrelly on the highway. I wouldn't feel absolutely safe to drive over 40+ mph like it is.
The rack I used is for a front end where the guide arms on the spindles are on the front. VW's are on the rear of the spindle. When I turned the steering wheel left, the wheels went right. Although that would have been a blast to see if I could keep the buggy on its wheels, it was not practical. I had to find a way to reverse the output to the rack, so I used an old oil pump, sealed it with epoxy and added a grease zerk. Well here it is. I am not married to it, so comment if you like.
[/img]
take one old oil pump (NOTE: The output side has to be drilled out 3/4" for the output shaft)
Press out the old shafts and replace with 3/4" 4140 shafts worked down on a lathe. Drilled through the gear and shaft and inserted roll pins in addition to TIG welding the ends.
what it looks like with new "input" and "output" shafts
I made the couplers from 1 1/8" CRS
Then added the u-joints (3/4" up top and 3/4" X 5/8" to attach to rack shaft)
If I had to go over it again, I'd go with the original steering so I'd feel safer at higher speeds on the highway. But, number one - I used what I had and number two - my brother-in-law told me it couldn't be done. |
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Rack & Pinions made for street car are design for suspension travel travel that goes straight up and down.
With the VW trailing arm suspension it also travels forward and back as it goes up and down.
Using short tie rods on both sides causes excessive toe change which you will feel in the steering wheel.
When we tried using the Porsche 911,912,and 914 rack & pinions on street Bugs you notice a lot more feed back in the steering wheel as compared to using a stock steering box because of the short tie rods on both sides.
Gil George (Funco) used a small rack & pinion off an early English car that had longer tie rods on the Wampusskitty buggy with single A-arm suspension. Gil even had a rack made in the USA that look very close to it.
Finding something with the longest tie rods is the idea setup.
Myself, if I was installing a rack in street car, I would go with the SACO/German Auto www.sacogermanauto.com rack that has the offset pinion for clearance under gas tank. _________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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That is some thinking using the oil pump to reverse rotation, I like it!
Thanks js. I had thought about bump steer, but not with that criteria, it is helpful. I looked at SaCo's racks, but the best ration they show is 1.5 to 1. I think that would be scary on the interstate at 70 mph. I did send them a email yesterday, but they have yet to answer it. _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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On the Manxter it has a SACO ratio with the 1.5 to 1 ratio and to slow it down so it more streetable I am using a Colman small steering quickner in reversed postion.
With it steering lock to lock is about 2 3/4 turns.
I not the only one that has this setup as others are using the same setup with good results.
It is very drivable at speed, I had it up to constant 85MPH keeping up with the traffic flow on the I-15 headed for Vegas. _________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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That is the input I am looking for. Thanks! _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:04 am Post subject: |
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This is Colman quickner I am using. It is mounted at upper end of column and I seen them mounted at the rack too. _________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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This is the Funco steering rack on a Wampuskitty. _________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
This is Colman quickner I am using. It is mounted at upper end of column and I seen them mounted at the rack too. |
I am liking this a lot.
I am a couple months out from needing the rack and will still be looking, but this is a viable choice right now. _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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The Vanagon unit is out. They are front steer. _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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dfunkesq Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2013 Posts: 90 Location: Norco, SoCal
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Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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So what happened here? what was the outcome? what did you decide to do? what have you done? any pic's? I am looking to do the very same thing. I would be interested in finding out what it is that you found out. |
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Still going tube chassis and getting ready to start it in about 2 weeks. I plan on finishing it to make the east coast to west coast run in July to the Manx Club's Big Bear event, and then drive home.
I am going traditional with a VW box.
I could not get the engineering to work where it would have less bump steer than the stock VW configuration, so, I could not justify the change. Because the spindle both raises/lowers in addition to traveling in a arc, it does not work for less bump steer.
Thanks for all the input fellas! _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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Sandbar Norm Samba Member
Joined: August 02, 2008 Posts: 115 Location: A Sandbar in Fl.
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Gary Massin-Ball Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2004 Posts: 377
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Just to add to this thread..... here is what I did to get the longest tie rods possible with the least $ spent.
Also check in the Gallery search for "poor mans rack" for the original set up with stock arms and shock towers.
_________________ Warrior sand rail:
2276cc 82x94
Engle FK-41 with 1.25:1 street style rockers
40x35.5 stock cast single port heads
Single 40mm Kadron w/32vent
Equalizer 5lb pulley
Stock lifters
Stock aluminum pushrods
26mm aluminum oil pump full flow
*Poor mans rack and pinion up front*
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The Ugly Bug is on the road! |
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Gary,
Does it work?
Did you cycle it through it travel to see how much toe change if any? _________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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Gary Massin-Ball Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2004 Posts: 377
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Yes it works very well! I have had the tie rod set up for bout 5 years now. I was always bending the left tie rod or steering arm.
There is almost zero toe change from droop to full jounce.
I added the top hoop when I went to air shock, then added the bottom hoop when I added the 2x4 arms. needed to move the vertical frame struts back that were right behind the tie rods and cut the bottom frame tube to allow more travel on droop.
Since I did this I have had zero breakage! _________________ Warrior sand rail:
2276cc 82x94
Engle FK-41 with 1.25:1 street style rockers
40x35.5 stock cast single port heads
Single 40mm Kadron w/32vent
Equalizer 5lb pulley
Stock lifters
Stock aluminum pushrods
26mm aluminum oil pump full flow
*Poor mans rack and pinion up front*
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The Ugly Bug is on the road! |
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