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princeofbongo Samba Member
Joined: October 31, 2010 Posts: 2 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:51 am Post subject: |
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Why isn't there more talk about the C240 and thereabouts rims such as 16x7 ET 37? Seems like they are abundant on Craigslist and are a straight bolt on with a 37 ET minus the center caps and perhaps requiring a solid liability insurance and health plan? Actually forget the liability and health plan. They seem to work out of the box, although would work better with say 12mm spacers up front and 15mm rear, am talking 2WD, with a tire of about 215/65/16. Off course one has to drill the lug holes to 14mm but that seems a breeze. And the required proper lug nuts and longer studs/bolts yada yada. I wish somebody just told me what to do because this is way confusing. What is the easiest and least complicated way to get 16"rims fitted? Do these just look dorky?? The load rating Gestapo doesn't approve? Seems like they would look fine with some properly fit tires. Give thanks to all input from somebody other than me who is obviously lost.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1012222.jpg |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5375 Location: PNW
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:06 am Post subject: |
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princeofbongo wrote: |
Why isn't there more talk about the C240 and thereabouts rims such as 16x7 ET 37? Seems like they are abundant on Craigslist and are a straight bolt on with a 37 ET minus the center caps and perhaps requiring a solid liability insurance and health plan? Actually forget the liability and health plan. They seem to work out of the box, although would work better with say 12mm spacers up front and 15mm rear, am talking 2WD, with a tire of about 215/65/16. Off course one has to drill the lug holes to 14mm but that seems a breeze. And the required proper lug nuts and longer studs/bolts yada yada. I wish somebody just told me what to do because this is way confusing. What is the easiest and least complicated way to get 16"rims fitted? Do these just look dorky?? The load rating Gestapo doesn't approve? Seems like they would look fine with some properly fit tires. Give thanks to all input from somebody other than me who is obviously lost.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1012222.jpg |
Hello! Welcome to the Samba!
Many, many folks have fitted those wheels (and other Mercedes 16x7 ET37 wheels) with great success. In order to retain the Mercedes center caps on the wheels pictured, you need at least 10mm spacers front and rear (although I do recommend going with 12mm spacers on the rear just to improve the aesthetics).
If you are not worried about the center caps, or if you want to run a set of our custom caps, you can run these without any spacers as long as you run 205 or narrower tires (assuming a 2wd application here). 215s fall into a gray area where the fit on some 2wd vans and not others. There is no way to tell other than to try it and see.
And yes, at a minimum, you would need to drill the lug holes to 37/64", install longer rear wheel studs and run small ball seat lug hardware.
If you want further information about these or any other wheels, just send me an email (in the sig below) and I would be happy to walk you through any combination of things that you wish. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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steve_hoge Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Boulder CO
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:27 am Post subject: |
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What's the Hollander and/or Mercedes part# for these?
-Steve |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5375 Location: PNW
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:30 am Post subject: |
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^^
Hollander #65211, Mercedes part #203 401 0302 _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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princeofbongo Samba Member
Joined: October 31, 2010 Posts: 2 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Chris, am also considering Audi Rims 16x7 with a ET45. May require a 15-20mm spacer? Also, what do I tell the machine shop who opens up the center bores. Do they open them up all the way, or leave maybe 3mm outboard so the stock Audi/VW centercaps will fit. Do I ask the machine shop to open them to 66mm or 66.67mm? Do the lug holes on these also need to be drilled to 14mm? I would would be fairly certain that they too will require new lugs and bolts/studs. Or do the Audi rim lug seats not require small ball seat lugs/bolts? I would prefer having studs all around, front and rear, especially with spacers. That is what I have now with the 14" Alloys. If worse comes to worse, can your centercaps fit almost all the time? However I am not too crazy about a protruding center cap.
As I spare I would need to source an Audi spare, preferably donut, or perhaps a 15" steel rim such as some vendors sell, and maybe install a tire with a higher profile to match let's assume 215/65/16 tires. has anybody had experience fitting such a spare into the place below? Or would that also have to be modified (the carrier for the spare)?
Budget: 200 for the 4 rims, 150 for spacers, 120 for studs, bolts etc, 80 for machine shop, 500 bucks for 4 decent tires = $275/wheel, roughly
anyways here is a pic, seem fairly handsome:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1012297.jpg |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5375 Location: PNW
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:16 am Post subject: |
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princeofbongo wrote: |
Thanks Chris, am also considering Audi Rims 16x7 with a ET45. May require a 15-20mm spacer? |
Yes, a 16x7 ET45 wheel usually requires a 12-15mm front spacer and up to a 20mm spacer on the rear.
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Also, what do I tell the machine shop who opens up the center bores. Do they open them up all the way, or leave maybe 3mm outboard so the stock Audi/VW centercaps will fit. Do I ask the machine shop to open them to 66mm or 66.67mm? |
I always recommend opening up the centerbores on all four wheels to 66.56mm (same as Mercedes). As for depth, I generally recommend that the centerbore be machined to a minimum depth of 48mm minus the spacer thickness. In other words, if a 15mm spacer is used, you would need to machine the wheels to a minimum depth of 33mm.
Stock center caps usually don't fit when using Audi or VW wheels due to the fact that many of them have wheel faces that are concave shaped (dished inward at the center cap). Due to the very large Vanagon hubs, stock center caps almost never fit so you are forced either live with it of come up with something custom.
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Do the lug holes on these also need to be drilled to 14mm? |
No! All applicable Audi/VW wheels have lug holes that already sized for use with 14x1.5mm hardware, so no drilling is necessary.
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I would would be fairly certain that they too will require new lugs and bolts/studs. Or do the Audi rim lug seats not require small ball seat lugs/bolts? |
All applicable Audi/VW wheels require the small ball seat lugs
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I would prefer having studs all around, front and rear, especially with spacers. That is what I have now with the 14" Alloys. |
That is doable with the correct selection of front conversion studs (assuming stock brakes).
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If worse comes to worse, can your centercaps fit almost all the time? However I am not too crazy about a protruding center cap. |
Our custom center caps can accommodate up to 14mm worth of hub "stick-out" past the face of the wheel. Whether or not the caps can fit depends on the wheel and spacer selection.
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As I spare I would need to source an Audi spare, preferably donut, or perhaps a 15" steel rim such as some vendors sell, and maybe install a tire with a higher profile to match let's assume 215/65/16 tires. has anybody had experience fitting such a spare into the place below? Or would that also have to be modified (the carrier for the spare)? |
On a 2wd, assuming you do not have any brake clearance issues, the spacer tire only needs to closely match the main tires on the van. This means that for emergency spare use, you can keep the stock 14" spare as long as it has the appropriate (or close to appropriate) diameter tire on it. If you use a steel 14" spare (that has a higher offset than the alloy wheels), you can use it right over the top of the spacers too, but you would need to use the large ball seat lugs rather than the small ball seat lugs. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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speeder Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2007 Posts: 18 Location: Durango, CO
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Steve,
How are the 16" Tire Rack/Sport Edition rims working out?
Did they take the VW lug nuts OK?
They look like a good deal. |
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kpbo Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2006 Posts: 40 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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Hi All,
Looking for some advice on fitting these 6.5x16" ET16 AT Italia alloys on my Syncro Westy (w/ Syncro.org springs, OME shocks):
I know the centerbores will need to be enlarged, and I also know that such a small offset is generally not recommended... But I'm planning to install a relatively tall narrow tire: 205/80R16, ~28.9" dia, section width ~7.8"
By my estimation, this will somewhat mitigate the tires from being pushed out too far...
Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated!
Thanks! _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia w/ 'AHU' TDI |
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steve_hoge Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Boulder CO
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Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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speeder wrote: |
How are the 16" Tire Rack/Sport Edition rims working out?
Did they take the VW lug nuts OK? |
Haven't quite finished up with this upgrade, still a bit nervous about the load rating. The lug nuts off the stock Carat alloys seemed to seat perfectly.
-Steve |
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steve_hoge Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Boulder CO
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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speeder wrote: |
Do you think you could get the center caps on over a 2wd front hub?
Maybe the 7" vs 7.5" width would allow for a 225/65 16 to fit a 2wd. |
I'm clueless on that. Perhaps Chris could comment.
-Steve |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5375 Location: PNW
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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steve_hoge wrote: |
speeder wrote: |
Do you think you could get the center caps on over a 2wd front hub?
Maybe the 7" vs 7.5" width would allow for a 225/65 16 to fit a 2wd. |
I'm clueless on that. Perhaps Chris could comment.
-Steve |
Sorry, I missed this question.
The problem that 2wd owners have is that the centerbore reduces in diameter where the center cap attaches. This causes interference with the grease caps.
A 225/65 on a 7" wide ET35 wheel will not fit on most 2wds. Almost all of the vans that I run across are slightly different in this area (clearance between the tire and the upper control arm), so there may be some out there that will accommodate that combination, but I doubt very many can. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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chojinchef Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2011 Posts: 1539 Location: Central Massachusetts
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Just a thank you to Loogy for the continual time spent on this post.
LP _________________ Its a mistress; an expensive, whiney, needy bitch of a mistress. She is a chunky, dirty girl with bad skin, little motivation and yet she always makes me smile. She sure has been around before shacking up with me. She has a direct line to my wallet, plays with my emotions, is consistantly jovial yet with a sarcastic and sardonic side, is consistant in her inconsistancy, and every once in a while gives me a great ride and a fantastic memory. |
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kpbo Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2006 Posts: 40 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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...bump... anyone care to weigh in on my question above? thanks! _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia w/ 'AHU' TDI |
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levi Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005 Posts: 5522 Location: Las Vegas
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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kpbo wrote: |
...bump... anyone care to weigh in on my question above? thanks! |
Random thoughts from a non expert:
A typical section width is 8.8 to 9 range, so you pull in about a half inch by going with the listed skinny tires, and you push out just a bit over a half inch with the 16et, so it sounds like a wash if your concern is the mud slinging on the side panels, unless I'm missing something.
Another concern I've read about is the effect this offset would have on wheel bearings.
A smaller section width would not alter how far out the center of the wheel is of course, so it seems to me you'd be stuck with that, and any handling issues. _________________ One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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kpbo Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2006 Posts: 40 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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thanks for the input!
yeah, I do remember reading about potential bearing wear caused by low offset wheels... intuitively, it does seem, however, that such effects would be somewhat ameliorated by the reduced 'leverage' afforded by the relatively narrow tire/wheel.
and yes--would like to avoid the mud/rock slinging and interference with the slider. but more immediately worried about the tire actually hitting the front fender (and my pricey German postal flares!). Again, this is a heavy Syncro Westy w/ only a moderate amount of lift afforded by the Syncro.org springs and OME shocks. Perhaps a spring spacer could be added later if I discover it hitting on full compression? _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia w/ 'AHU' TDI |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5375 Location: PNW
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:07 am Post subject: |
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@kpbo
I will agree with pretty much everything that Levi mentioned.
While any potential increase in bearing wear is hard to quantify due to too many variables, I will say that the narrower wheel width does not mitigate that potential. The reason is because the offset of based off of the centerline of the wheel. This means that for any given offset, any change in wheel width changes by an equal amount both inside and outside of the offset. In other words, if the wheel width changes by 1", 1/2 of that change is made on the outside and the other 1/2 is made on the inside. This means that for the most part, the load that the bearing will see is the same for a 16x8 ET16 as it would be for a 16x6 ET16 wheel.
In addition, and staying with our 16x8 ET16 and 16x6 ET16 wheel examples, if we install the same size tires on each of those, the tread of the tires will not change. The sidewalls will change (further apart on the wider wheels, closer together on the narrower wheels), but not the tread position in relation to the fender openings.
Since one of your concerns is, "...worried about the tire actually hitting the front fender (and my pricey German postal flares!)", the best course of action to protect your flares would be to install the wheel/tire combination with the shocks installed but the springs removed. Then raise the suspension as far as it will go and turn the wheel left and right looking for clearance issues. Increase the bumpstop length until you have clearance plus enough of a buffer to allow the bumpstop to compress. That would be he best way to ensure that you maintain the clearance you need with those tall tires and low offset wheels. Obviously it is possible that the bumpstop length required to prevent tire contact will be long enough to impede upward wheel travel to the point that it becomes a problem. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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kpbo Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2006 Posts: 40 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the response Chris!
And good point about the wheel width... I see now how wheel width is irrelevant. While I do still suspect a narrower tread tire should, in principle, translate into less leverage, I imagine the real world difference in the impact on the bearings is negligible.
Gonna bite the bullet! Will report back on how it turns out. _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia w/ 'AHU' TDI |
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KDI_CUSTOMS Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2009 Posts: 91 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:00 am Post subject: |
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I brought this over from my posts in part 1:
I really wanted the Brabus wheels for my vanagon but I am going to pass on the idea for now.
I have been doing some research and found some Audi and VW wheels that I like. They range from 17x8 to 19x8 with an ET of 35 or so and have a center bore of 57.1mm respectively. Correct me if Im wrong, but I believe they should fit with minimal spacers, longer studs and having the bore opened up a total width of 3/8 of an inch to 66.6mm.
Also, what tire size would you recommend at stock height and also if I lowered it 50 - 70mm with AVO springs?? |
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Franklinstower Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2006 Posts: 1892 Location: PNW
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Anyone have pictures of these MB wheels on their Vanagon?
17x7.5 et 37
I only have two, and if the look is right, I might try to find two more, either in the same 17" or in a 16" which I could run on the front for that killer staggered look!
Paul _________________ '89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug |
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ZanaEvyPapa Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2010 Posts: 255 Location: Gainesville, FL
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Franklinstower wrote: |
Anyone have pictures of these MB wheels on their Vanagon?
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not exact, but there are some very similar configs on a simple google search:
https://www.google.com/search?q=vanagon+mercedes+w...mp;bih=995 _________________ 82 Diesel Westy
03 Jetta TDI
Gainesville, FL |
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