Newbie is Losing His Cool

[E1]

Hello, Fellow Westfalians:

This is my first post, I've read here for a year and love this site. Apologies for the long post, necessary details included.

We bought an '84 Westy on March 1, our first bus though we've had a '96 Jetta since 2002, and finally picked it up from a now-former friend and ex-trusted mechanic a week ago. Worst business deal for us evah, we're about to live in the Westy and much of our funds were absorbed sans any estimate from the "friend..." Nasty.

We're intending to live on the road indefinitely, my wife had a malpracticed stroke in 2005 and we're finally broke — so will travel wide and far to heal and rebuild our nature photo business.

Last Sunday we drove it up a big hill outside of Denver — just as we'd done as a cooling test before buying it — and it poured out a gallon or so of coolant at the summit. I pulled off the engine cover and it wasn't hot, I came to realize when low on coolant a sensor sends off the blinking light as we all know, but also claims it's overheating when it isn't. Both fan speeds are working. I shut her down and it showed full hot for an hour, as soon as I covered the sensor with coolant it went to full cold. Lesson 1.

So we took her for a flush and fill Wednesday, and a successful pressure test at 1 bar while at operating temp, at a VW store but not by a bus wrench. I'm not convinced there's not air in the system all along, as he didn't raise the front to vent the rad. The seal on the overflow cap doesn't seal, though I inspected another '84 and it didn't either and learned it doesn't have to... Lesson 2. The temperatures on the rad were all over the place, it was the original, so we bought a new one from SA since we hope to restore and run this thing for decades.

Rad went in Saturday, and then when idling it went towards full hot before the thermostat opened (I was told it was the "coolest to open" thermostat) and dropped to middle-gauge. All was fine for an hour of city and highway driving, then while idling for three minutes it dumped coolant again. I topped it off with 60/40 VW coolant, drove it up the same test hill and it was fine under load... then dumped again in a parking lot five minutes after summiting, while idling. It's also done it just after shutoff, and finally I see it's pouring out the top of the compression tank.

SO... if the thermostat were closing down when hot, would the pressure vent coolant like this? I'm putting in a new compression tank cap now, topping off with fluid, and seeing if that's part of this.

IN SHORT... I don't think we have an overheating issue, but rather a coolant pressure issue.

If indeed the head and/or gasket is bad, I'll be leaning towards a fresh motor — another Wasser, possibly a Subie, Audi straight 5, or even our trusty 2L Jetta that'll otherwise live in storage. Been quoted $2,400 for heads and gaskets, so at that fiscal point I have no idea what else could go bad with this "mystery motor" so might start fresh. The bus was sold to us claiming a "factory rebuilt motor with 40K on her," sans receipts for that, so at this point I don't buy it... (even though I did )

Thanks, any help would be hugely appreciated!!! I've gotten to know Masterpiece and Terry K here so will be calling them soon as well.

[NC Dude]

the jetta 2.0 is a very nice, torquey little engine-a raised lid is needed which is no big deal at all and stock like ground clearance to boot!

[Vango Conversions]

That's unfortunate that you lost a friend over buying a 30 year old car from him. You can't reasonably expect to jump into any 30 year old rig and not expect it to break down on you, especially a Vanagon. Really, what do you expect? Did you pay him to replace the entire cooling system and he lied to you or something? Even if he did, it's hard to get good parts these days. I've had plenty of new parts fail on me and my customer's rigs, it's just the way things are these days. You do what you can but shit happens.

There are so many pieces to the cooling system. If you just replace them as they break, you'll probably be breaking down every few months. The only way to get reliability out of these old things is to start fresh with your whole cooling system.

[E1]

Thanks NC Dude, that's a tempting option for sure.

Vango, sorry, I didn't buy it from the mechanic. Don't wanna divert the cooling issue to that, but the long and short is I spent hours researching and typing up work to consider and we agreed he'd quote everything before he did anything. Never got one after 10+ requests, never knew anything until the bill showed up and we agreed he'd install the five gauges we bought for an agreed final price — then he demanded the money and refused to install the gauges. The bus was supposed to be totally done by 4-15, instead we picked it up 5 weeks late with maybe 30% of the work done, paying for a motel all of May, and the work we needed prioritized as agreed was never done. He did what he pleased and charged us over double his former shop rate, and added another 25% of parts markup without any communication at all. Total mess, and I've worked with mechanics over 35 years so respect the honest ones immensely. Many of my friends are wrenches in racing and street, but none are bus guys.

I fully expect to have problems as we restore the bus and agree that replacing every cooling part together is the way to go. I do hesitate adding a new thermostat and water pump until further convinced it's not a head issue — if indeed we replace the motor.

Thanks.

[Vanagon Nut]

This post:

http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind1207C&L=vanagon&P=R5156

suggests that some WBX may have the incorrect type of thermostat. Not saying this is the cause of your cooling system woes but your mention of thermostat makes me wonder.

With a 1.8 head, the Jetta 2.0 can fit under the stock engine lid. A stock 2.0 head requires a mild engine lid "hump". Search 50º or 15º, ABA, here. You'll find lots of info.

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[E1]

Thanks, Vanagon Nut!

I haven't yet seen the thermostat, but this makes perfect sense. I hope to see it tomorrow and hope it's the left one! The larger washer blocking the bypass is consistent with pressure building and releasing.

I owe you!

[eeebee]

Sorry about your problems. It sounds like your mechanic is over his head if he doesn't have vanagon experience.

Your cooling problem seems minor. I can't tell from your description if it is the pressure cap, cracked tank etc.

The vanagon is not the most economical choice if you are going to be running to the mechanic every time you have a minor problem. Almost anything that happens you can learn to fix and unless you find a vanagon specialist they you probably shouldn't let anyone else touch it.
_________________
Eric

1987 Vanagon Wolfsburg Special Edition
GoWesty 2.3

Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time.

[funagon]

From your description I'm not sure where the antifreeze is "dumping" from. I'm guessing it's pouring out of the tank that's behind the license plate, after the van gets hot and you've shut it down.

This is a common symptom of the blue coolant cap going bad, that's the cap on the coolant tank (driver's side engine compartment) that's supposed to hold pressure. If it isn't working properly--not holding pressure in the cooling system--then the coolant expands and boils at a lower temperature.

But you don't experience an "overheating event" while driving because the water pump is moving coolant through the system and through the radiator. But as soon as the van stops, and the engine shuts off, the coolant is "super-heated" (my terminology) and the expanding fluid overflows into the overflow tank (the one behind the license plate) and spills everywhere.

So, maybe I read your description wrong and I don't understand what's happening with your van. But, if it is as I've described, then the next thing you need to try is a new pressure cap on the cooling system, which looks like this:

http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_273_230/reservoir_cap_-_for_pressurized_bottle.html

Might be an easy $9.00 fix for your problem.
_________________
1990 GL 7-passenger
2.2 liter WBX

[DirtyBlueVan]

[Vanagon Nut]

[Ahwahnee]

[E1]

Thank You, eeebeee. I am prepared and tooled to work on her over time, just want things travel-worthy by someone in the know before we blaze off and jump into the Bently manual. Best way for me to earn early on, it seems clear the cooling system is the Number 1 thing to have right on these babies.

I did buy the cap for the compression tank... but it's not the German one. The underside has two "dimples" and rotates, when I bought it it appeared we were a day from a solution and nobody in town had the correct one. It was actually ordered in in error as I'd thought then the overflow cap might be the issue... until learning better. I'll order both caps from Van-Cafe tomorrow.

I will R&R the compression tank cap today and run her up the hill, after topping the coolant off again. Once warmed up, I'll squeeze the compression tank itself and check for pressure loss.

THANKS!

[E1]

[meyervw]

Not sure bout all the radiator but mine has a bolt type thing at the very top of the radiator. I removed this and filled it with a large fuel syringe form a hobby store and some tubing. Yes it take a very long time to do but no air in the system when I was done.
_________________
Spelling in my post may or may not be correct.
Gustav 1987 Wolfsburg Edition

[E1]

Thanks MeyerVW, that sounds good. I believe you're referring to the rad tap on the passenger side?

Love to find something like the vacuum hair cutter on Wayne's World, something that "really does suck." Sounds like your solution is just that (in an efficient way). < insert Thumbs Up and ribbing here >

I do also wonder if I could be sucking air from the rear heater...??? Like earlier suggested, in the end I think I want the entire cooling system fresh, way cheap insurance! We'll be pretty loaded down, up and over passes in desert and mountain, stresses high though I do know how to baby a motor, trans, and clutch (don't even know how not to heel-and-toe downshift).

It's all good, just dying to get a rollin'.

Thanks Again.

[funagon]

[funagon]

[MayorMcCheese]

I got confused by your last post. Are you saying that the tank behind the license plate fills up with coolant and leaks from there?

Overflow tank = tank behind the license plate.

Expansion Tank = the one with the blue cap.
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wv2yb0252gg092706

[E1]

Thanks Again, Funagon!

The new, non-Deutsche expansion tank cap looks like junk to me. The sprung vent cap just fell out in my hands. I may try to pull the innards out and re-position the spring from the inside, but regardless, the cap seems to be crap (Made in China, Supah!).

If I do a test run today at all, do you think the weak-sealing compression tank-to-expansion-tank hose held on with the weak spring clamp could be an issue? I can't imagine it's holding pressure...

[funagon]