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randywebb Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2005 Posts: 3815 Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:24 pm Post subject: Hot Start Problem - What exactly is it? |
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What exactly happens to cause a hot start "no crank" problem?
Does some metal part in the solenoid or starter swell?
(There is no entry in the FAQ for this and the search engine is not able to pull it up either). My hope is to get some answers that a mod can add to the FAQ. _________________ 1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans. |
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scottychop Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2013 Posts: 187 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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No idea, but I would guess the solenoid. My hot start problem was actually NOT the starter or battery cable but the ground straps. I replaced battery ground, trans ground, and engine ground and suddenly I had NO more hot start problems... |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17009 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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On our race cars, it is very important if you go off track or spin to not stall the engine. The starter is heat soaked as well as the engine. Add the high compression and the engine has swelled with heat and you have a no crank hot situation.
I wonder if you put a ziplock bag of ice on the starter solenoid if yours would start after it cooled some. Lots of heat back there with no way to just get out of there. _________________ ☮️ |
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randywebb Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2005 Posts: 3815 Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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ice is an interesting idea tho I'm not sure how I could accomplish getting it in there
whatever is causing this, it does not happen with a cold engine (at least has never happened with at least 30 starts)
if I stop for gas or some other stop of about 5 minutes in duration, it does not happen (about 12 trials; and I cannot recall it ever happening)
but at least 3 times, if I run the Van for a while (hot engine) and then stop for 20 minutes or longer - it will nto crank (no clicks from solenoid; LEDs light up fine; fuel pump runs[it is new BTW])
then after 2 hours or the next day, it will start and run fine
one time, I decided to measure voltage while trying to start it:
there was a voltage drop while the key was turned to Start (from ~ 12.5V down to ~ 11.5 V; measured at the cig. lighter outlet on the dash)
---> the above symptoms make me think that the heat causes some metal piece to expand and then that locks up the starter - but if so, why does the solenoid not click?? _________________ 1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans. |
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wareiter Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2007 Posts: 157 Location: severna park, maryland
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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What happens if you use a remote starter switch? Might help isolate the problem. The remote starter that clips to the solenoid for working on the car solo. I had an intermittent no crank and wired a lawn tractor ignition switch to the solenoid and ran it up into the cabin through the battery vent. Still used keyed ignition to "run" but used tractor switch to engage starter when key would not crank. _________________ 1985 weekender
1989 560 SL
1995 RR Classic
http://waterboxer.blogspot.com |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17009 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Like this.
_________________ ☮️ |
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Vango Conversions Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2010 Posts: 1054 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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It's usually the voltage drop increases as the wiring heats up. That's why installing a relay helps. |
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BC Westie Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2007 Posts: 331 Location: British Columbia
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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Vango is right. The resistance builds up in the wires when it is hot out. In my case it happened for 2 years, hot sunny days and usually when trying to get on or off a ferry boat. Sucked. The PO had installed a door bell start button. As soon as I removed this, put a new ignition switch it fixed it. The door bell dropped the voltage to much on hot days. I also have the bypass relay which I will install eventually. But restoring my ignition circuit back to stock and making sure the wires were all good fixed it. Next the relay that is in the Samba classifieds. _________________ 1980 Vanagon Cali Import 86,000Miles
1981 Vanagon (Auto) 219,000kms
1981 Westfalia (Auto) Cali Import 169,000Miles
1981 Westfalia 300,000kms
1982 Westfalia Cali Import 193,000Miles
1982 Westfalia (Auto) 205,000Kms
1984 Vanagon 306,000kms
1987 Vanagon GL 300,000Kms |
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randywebb Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2005 Posts: 3815 Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, resistivity does increase with heat. For Cu wires, resistance per unit length will go up about 30% from 20 oC to 100 oC (boiling water). That is not a lot, but might push a marginal system "over the edge."
But... then the starter should crank slowly, shouldn't it? Mine doesn't and in fact, the solenoid does NOT CLICK
Also, why does the problem NOT occur when I stop for 5 minutes?
I hear people here use terms like "heat soak" of the solenoid or something but I've never been able to get a satisfactory mechanistic explanation of exactly what component (wiring in solenoid?? it is a big relay after all) is getting soaked with heat and what that does to it... _________________ 1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans. |
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BC Westie Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2007 Posts: 331 Location: British Columbia
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Mine was all or nothing. No slow crank. New starter as well. _________________ 1980 Vanagon Cali Import 86,000Miles
1981 Vanagon (Auto) 219,000kms
1981 Westfalia (Auto) Cali Import 169,000Miles
1981 Westfalia 300,000kms
1982 Westfalia Cali Import 193,000Miles
1982 Westfalia (Auto) 205,000Kms
1984 Vanagon 306,000kms
1987 Vanagon GL 300,000Kms |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7892 Location: Arizona
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randywebb Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2005 Posts: 3815 Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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can you change the titles when you add a thread? Temp II sensor could be added to a couple of those
BTW - my own Temp II sensor is new... _________________ 1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.
Last edited by randywebb on Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gruppe B Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007 Posts: 1331
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Randy,
What is the age and condition of the wiring going to the starter?
My old Porsche 924 (don't laugh ) had a seriously corroded positive supply cable that caused the exact same condition. I had thought that it was a starter problem but a friend recommended replacing the ground and positive supply lead with new and the problem completely went away.
Just check the resistance in the cable and if high, replace |
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randywebb Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2005 Posts: 3815 Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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looks fine from what I can see w/o a lift or disassembly
always been an Oregon Van; 195k miles; and I have never found any electrical corrosion on it _________________ 1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans. |
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Tobias Duncan Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2013 Posts: 1388 Location: Taos NM
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Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:53 am Post subject: |
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I had the EXACT same symptoms as the OP.
Long road trip and after five hours of driving if I stopped the engine I would get no crank or even click. Blazers recommended new battery and starter.
Turns out it was a loose ground strap between the chassis and the transmission.
Ground issues will give you some odd symptoms and this is often one of them. |
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purplepeopleeater Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2005 Posts: 3117 Location: E. Washington
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Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like crappy Duralast/Autolite starter problems I have had.
went with a good used starter I knew was a bosch original and problem went away, hmmm |
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AdrianC Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2012 Posts: 526 Location: Wherever the road's gone
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Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:12 am Post subject: |
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I've had an old starter on one car which - when hot - would just refuse to crank. Basically behaved as if the battery was totally flat. There were three ways to get it to go again - wait half an hour, get a jump start, or pour a bottle of cold water over the starter motor. All three were foolproof. Replacing the starter resolved it.
On the van, currently, we occasionally get something a bit similar - if it's hot, then the starter can very slowly churn over once, pause, then spin over OK but a little slowly. I _think_ it's the bush. I've got a replacement ready to go in, just got to get round to it. _________________ Adrian
Zookeeper of a miscellany of motoring silliness, from 0.75bhp to 9ft tall.
Living life on the road in an '88 2.1DJ Westfalia Club Joker Hightop.
www.WhereverTheRoadGoes.com |
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Buick Truck guy Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2016 Posts: 3 Location: Motor City
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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Hot Start Problem - What exactly is it? |
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I also have a hot start problem on my '84 Westfalia with about 90K miles. It is a summer vehicle so it is not all rusted up and we have had it for about 25 years.
This is what happens. When I go out to start the van cold it starts and runs great.
If I drive it for maybe 1/2 hour or more, stop it and then try to start it again in less than 1/2 hour +-, it will slowly turn over a little bit or click like it has a bad battery but will not turn over fast enough to start. Let it get stone cold and it starts with no problems.
I have replaced the battery.
I have replaced the starter.
I have removed the battery and cleaned the ground wire to the body and so it would make a good connection including cleaning the body surface where the cable attaches to the body.
I have replaced the ground wire from the body to the transmission on the drivers side of the vehicle and cleaned the contact points for the cable on the body stud and the transmission. (it is a 4 speed manual)
I can bump start the van to get it going with no problem.
I still have the problem.
Can someone please give me an idea of what to do next?
I would appreciate any help that you can provide.
Thanks
Larry |
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tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3528 Location: CA & NM
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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Hot Start Problem - What exactly is it? |
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Buick Truck guy wrote: |
..If I drive it for maybe 1/2 hour or more, stop it and then try to start it again in less than 1/2 hour +-, it will slowly turn over a little bit or click like it has a bad battery but will not turn over fast enough to start. Let it get stone cold and it starts with no problems... |
Have you tried to disable the ignition system to see if the cranking RPM speeds up? |
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mightyart Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004 Posts: 6188 Location: Portland, Oregon
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