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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32632 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Pascal Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2006 Posts: 825 Location: Fredericton, NB, Canada
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Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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it is the bracket that mounts the alternator base to case that cracks. Here is the GoWesty article on it. I believe Van Cafe has the same preventative fix for this.
http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=1201 _________________ '84 Westy - 2.2wbx, GT Torque-Biasing Differential
'91 EA Cabby |
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jaeger74 Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2011 Posts: 75 Location: Bucks County
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Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Nice to see that you getting all aspects taken care in this rebuilt. I think GoWesty has the backround story and the fix for this, see here:
http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=1201
Keep up the good work
Elmar _________________ 1987 Westy
2000 Ducati Monster
2001 Toyota Tacoma |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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I tack weld the two parts of the bracket together better than they were when produced.
No issues since. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32632 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32632 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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jaeger74 Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2011 Posts: 75 Location: Bucks County
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Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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Seem to be $ 40 for a simple bracket and some bolts, but lets face it:
1. If you make it yourself, how much time will it take to make it and you got a big project going, where you can use that time for better things.
2. They put the time in to think about it and come up with a solution, that is worth supporting.
Just bite the bullet and get it, maybe there will be a back Friday sale or something - and you get some GoWesty bucks back _________________ 1987 Westy
2000 Ducati Monster
2001 Toyota Tacoma |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32632 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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I have had a few split right in half...hence the extra welds. |
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jaeger74 Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2011 Posts: 75 Location: Bucks County
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Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I hear you on GoWestys shpping charges. I wish the bus depot would carry some of their stuff ( like the vancafe does ), I can drive to them in 40 minutes and pick up in the store. Still probably a two hour drive for you Dave, but better than CA _________________ 1987 Westy
2000 Ducati Monster
2001 Toyota Tacoma |
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T3 Pilot Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011 Posts: 1507 Location: Deep South of the Great White North
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Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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That bracket helps to reduce the weight cantilevered on the mount bolts that attach to the front face of the engine block. It has the added benefit of a carriage bolt that prevents the pivot bolt from spinning when you need to loosen the nut to adjust the belt tension.
Ingenious. _________________ 1988 Vanagon
The most important part in every vehicle is the nut behind the wheel...... |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50352
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Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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An easy fix for those without power steering is the get a power steer mount and then make a short little arm that goes from the PS mount to the alternator pivot bolt. You can do this is you have power steering as well, but it takes more modification to make it work. Adding a power steering bracket and making the link is on my to do list for "new to me" used engine going into my 83 1/2 POS in the next couple of days. I will try Insyncro's extra welds as well.
The original mounts had a square hole for a carriage bolt and the mounts would break through the square edges of the hole. The replacement mount with two round holes works better but the system is still overloaded, the mounting bolts can and do break and you can get damage to the crankcase that isn't all that easy to deal with. Eventually the pivot bore for the alternator will wear bad enough for the alternator to sit cocked at an angle, and I have even had the housing of the alternator crack in two. Pretty sad engineering really. |
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rubbachicken Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2004 Posts: 3058 Location: socal
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Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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looks like an easy bracket to make
that's what i'd do _________________ lucy our westy
lucy's BIG adventure
meet 'burni'
markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 or 617 935 4182 |
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61Scout Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2011 Posts: 1297 Location: Shoreline/Yakima WA
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50352
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Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Here is the brace I built which uses the power steering bracket as an extra support. It is built from 3/16 x 1 1/4" steel bar stock. Note the slight "S" bend to get the ends to line up right.
I will probably go back and round the corners of the brace for kicks before I am done. You can see one of the extra welds to the OEM bracket peeking out from under the alternator. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32632 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Here is the brace I built which uses the power steering bracket as an extra support. It is built from 3/16 x 1 1/4" steel bar stock. Note the slight "S" bend to get the ends to line up right.
I will probably go back and round the corners of the brace for kicks before I am done. You can see one of the extra welds to the OEM bracket peeking out from under the alternator. |
Sorry, I don't see his this helps much.
The orange bracket is the alternator /dipstick tube support,
The Blue bracket is the welded alternator support,
The Green bracket is the new support from the PS pump.
The pivot point that holds the Alternator, the Yellow Dot, is not supported securely.
The Yellow fastening point is a hinge, it can move up or down easily. The plane of the two support members is too much of a straight line to offer support. It's simply a weak member.
Now, if you made a new dipstick support running from the PS bracket to the case support member and bolting to the Alternator bracket as ONE PIECE, ......... You might have some added strength using metal beefy enough.
As built....... Not so much.
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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61Scout Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2011 Posts: 1297 Location: Shoreline/Yakima WA
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Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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djkeev wrote: |
The pivot point that holds the Alternator, the Yellow Dot, is not supported securely.
The Yellow fastening point is a hinge, it can move up or down easily. The plane of the two support members is too much of a straight line to offer support. It's simply a weak member.
Now, if you made a new dipstick support running from the PS bracket to the case support member and bolting to the Alternator bracket as ONE PIECE, ......... You might have some added strength using metal beefy enough.
As built....... Not so much.
Dave |
The yellow point doesn't swing. It's just a bolt hole that effectively clamps the swing arm of the p/s pump. What Wildthings and I did was to provide an additional brace from that clamping point and extend that over to the alternator bracket. It's easier to think about if you look at the p/s bracket directly from the top.
I've removed the factory alternator bracket to illustrate my point. Here I've installed the new brace. If you push where the red arrow is it's firm.
It's not going to be as strong as the GW brace because your supporting from the distance of the width of the oem alternator brace, whereas the GW brace supports from the back side close to the block. However, it certainly offers more support than the factory set up.
The weakness in Wildthings design is the brace itself. A flat piece of metal is easier to bend than a piece of angle iron. _________________ 1986 Westfalia Weekender Wolfsburg, RJE 2.3
1985 Tin Top, Subie 2.2 + 5MT
Floppy Mirrors no more: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=653018&highlight=
Remove the front spindle nut with ease: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679567&highlight=
Remove the rear wheel bearing housing without messing with the big 46mm nut: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679507&highlight=
-Nec Spe, Nec Metu |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50352
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Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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The original lower bracket and its fasteners fail readily because the bracket is cantilevered out from the block and takes a high torque load as a result. (I have actually heard this load be referred to as a wrench load, as it is a bit more complicated than just a torque load) By adding the brace like I did the torque load on the original bracket is largely reduced. I would bet you could even run with one of the nuts removed that hold the original bracket to the engine block, at least for a while, whereas with the original set up the studs are sometimes ripped right out of the block from the torque load.
The GW bracket still leaves the OEM bracket with a lot of torque on it, but would certainly help by in transferring some of this load to the pivot bolt and away from the 8mm fasteners. I also don't expect to have any problem with using a piece of bar stock verses angle iron, as the load on the brace is almost 100% tension with no or minimum bending or compression. Note that the added brace almost directly counters the belt load.
The only failure mode I can see is if the power steering bracket it not up to handling the load, but since I don't have power steering on this rig it would be no big deal if the PS bracket were to crack a hundred thousand miles down the road, I will just get another one. |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16505 Location: Brookeville, MD
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61Scout Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2011 Posts: 1297 Location: Shoreline/Yakima WA
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Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Wildthings wrote: |
The original lower bracket and its fasteners fail readily because the bracket is cantilevered out from the block and takes a high torque load as a result. (I have actually heard this load be referred to as a wrench load, as it is a bit more complicated than just a torque load) By adding the brace like I did the torque load on the original bracket is largely reduced. I would bet you could even run with one of the nuts removed that hold the original bracket to the engine block, at least for a while, whereas with the original set up the studs are sometimes ripped right out of the block from the torque load.
The GW bracket still leaves the OEM bracket with a lot of torque on it, but would certainly help by in transferring some of this load to the pivot bolt and away from the 8mm fasteners. I also don't expect to have any problem with using a piece of bar stock verses angle iron, as the load on the brace is almost 100% tension with no or minimum bending or compression. Note that the added brace almost directly counters the belt load.
The only failure mode I can see is if the power steering bracket it not up to handling the load, but since I don't have power steering on this rig it would be no big deal if the PS bracket were to crack a hundred thousand miles down the road, I will just get another one. |
I agree with you Wildthings, re-reading my last comment, it kinda came out wrong. I wasn't trying to badmouth your brace at all, after all I borrowed your idea in the first place A piece as short as this (3-4") really isn't going to make much difference between using flat bar or angle iron. And as you pointed out it's more likely the p/s bracket will fail before the p/s to alt brace. Looks like we both simply used what was laying around the shop. Same result, different approach. And good point on the brace countering the belt load, I didn't think about that, but that's very true. _________________ 1986 Westfalia Weekender Wolfsburg, RJE 2.3
1985 Tin Top, Subie 2.2 + 5MT
Floppy Mirrors no more: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=653018&highlight=
Remove the front spindle nut with ease: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679567&highlight=
Remove the rear wheel bearing housing without messing with the big 46mm nut: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679507&highlight=
-Nec Spe, Nec Metu |
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