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Drill Hole in AFM Flap?
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drober23
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is not enough air during a cold start. There are two systems in place to provide extra air during a cold start.

1) The adjustment screw on the AFM (it should be screwed all the way in)

2) The Auxilliary Air Valve (AAV). You should test it as shown on ratwell.com. If it is good, you can consider drilling a hole in it. Colin has a writeup on it. If you can't find it here, you can probably find it on his site: www.itinerant-air-cooled.com

Good luck to you!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Too bad the heads get 450' on the highway like that.


yes - 14.7 at freeway speeds will do that.

My suggestion is set the door to open at 60 grams per the thread I wrote on measurements taken from a NOS 76-78 AFM. From there set the mixture to run at 1.0% CO at idle and 13.1 - 13.3 at 65 - 70 MPH flat and level. That will give you 14.7 -15.0 around town at 30 - 40 MPH which will run at 350F head temps and about 360F - 400F at freeway speeds depending on outside ambient air temps and sea level. If you run richer trying to throw fuel at it to cool it you will do equal damage washing oil off the rings and cylinder walls. Set the timing to 28 degrees - 29 degrees full in. Next time the heads are off degree your flywheel so you know where zero is and you can check the timing scale any time the engine is out to be sure zero is zero. Those plastic and even aluminum timing scales can deform 3 - 5 degrees.


Once you have done that set the cold idle speed to 1100 - 1200 RPM with the AAR screw or buy a new one if you can find it.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pure Genius....

I dug another AFM out of my stash,
Set it to 60g and stabbed it in.
Viola! It started!
WhooHoo!
It started to idle up as it warmed,
Then I remembered I left the AAR unplugged..
So I was able to get the idle speed right with the TB screw,
And set the idle A/F ratio with a 1/2 turn on the AFM bypass screw,
And there it sits,
Idling smooth as it can with that cam,
And a nice 14.5-ish A/F ratio when fully warm.
What was a heart-warming joy was the fact that the screws actually initiated the response they were supposed to.

So, the traffic had hit by the time I was done.
There was NO way I could get some highway time in to check cruise A/F ratio,
So the real test is yet to be performed.

Perhaps, my old AFM was actually bad(?)
Hopefully, this one will get me a good cruise A/F _and_ a cold start...

Thanks again,
Will report back...
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Pure Genius....

I dug another AFM out of my stash,
Set it to 60g and stabbed it in.
Viola! It started!
WhooHoo!
It started to idle up as it warmed,
Then I remembered I left the AAR unplugged..
So I was able to get the idle speed right with the TB screw,
And set the idle A/F ratio with a 1/2 turn on the AFM bypass screw,
And there it sits,
Idling smooth as it can with that cam,
And a nice 14.5-ish A/F ratio when fully warm.
What was a heart-warming joy was the fact that the screws actually initiated the response they were supposed to.

So, the traffic had hit by the time I was done.
There was NO way I could get some highway time in to check cruise A/F ratio,
So the real test is yet to be performed.

Perhaps, my old AFM was actually bad(?)
Hopefully, this one will get me a good cruise A/F _and_ a cold start...

Thanks again,
Will report back...


so now make small changes once you get a baseline mixture at 65-70 MPH. I went 3 spring clicks softer off the 60G (which was what the factory unit came in at) and then used the slider screw to adjust the mixture to 13.1 - 13.3 at 65 - 70 mph. Then check it at WOT and you should see in the low 12's.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pondering this right now...

Wouldn't the spring clicks be the item to target my cruise A/F ratio,
Then use the slider screw (if needed) to trim in my idle and/or cold start environment?

Which might require a re-visit to my cruise setting again....

Right?

The whole nature of the 'progression' up the RPM/Fuel/Load curve will need to be changed because of my different engine spec.
likely, because my flap is flip-flopping so much from the lumpy cam,
That my slider screw is likely going to end up near the (lean) end of it's travel to keep the cold start clean enough....

Right?

Maybe?
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no. Go read Probst again.

The ECU determines how much fuel to send to the engine mostly from the number of times the coil sparks. Bosch then had to add fuel when

to start the engine cold - CSV
the engine was cold - TS2
the incoming air was really cold - TS1
the engine was accelerating - AFM door flap speed
Turn off fuel when in overrun (decal) - AFM door flap closing
Fine tune based on wear, compression, differences - AFM slider screw
At idle - air bypass screw in AFM

Mess with the spring and you are messing with acceleration mixture and overrun. Use the slider screw. You'll find that if you simply rev the engine to say 2000 RPM and slide it until the meter reads 13.9, then take it out you can adjust up or down simply by watching the meter with the engine at 2000 RPM. IF 13.9 gives you say 13.4 at 65 - 70 then set the slider to 13.7 at 2000 RPM and try again. Piece of cake. Start messing with the spring it is like trying to jet a carb by changing the accelerator pump setting. The slider is what you want to use BECAUSE the flap has multiple functions it performs.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beautiful.
Got It.

The little gerbil is running on the wheel, and the light is getting a bit brighter as he speeds up....
SO totally primed to learn this here right now.

I love you, man... *sniff*
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't agree with SGKent on this, there is a difference in what changing the wiper adjustment and spring tension do. The wiper adjustment is very linear, while the spring tension adjustment on a curve depending on the design characteristics of the flapper and housing. If you want high volume enrichment and low volume leaning, you want to adjust the wiper as far to counter clockwise as it will go and still have the contact stay on the resistance strip and then readjust the spring to give you the high air flow mixture you want. The wiper adjustment can enrichen the high air flow mixture past what any adjustment of the spring can do. These two adjustments work together, you change one and you will probably need to change the other. Adding a hole will lean out the idle mixture even more, while having almost no effect on the high speed mixture.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't agree with SGKent on this, there is a difference in what changing the wiper adjustment and spring tension do. The wiper adjustment is very linear, while the spring tension adjusts on a curve depending on the design characteristics of the flapper and housing. If you want high volume enrichment and low volume leaning, you want to adjust the wiper as far to counter clockwise as it will go and still have the contact stay on the resistance strip and then readjust the spring to give you the give you the mixture you want at lower air flows. The wiper adjustment can enrichen the high air flow mixture past what any adjustment of the spring can do. These two adjustments work together, you change one and you will probably need to change the other.

Adding a hole will lean out the idle mixture even more, while having almost no effect on the high speed mixture.
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Hoody
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may want to post this question on the type 4rum.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Was at soccer practice with my kid yesterday,
All greasy after dicking with my bus.
Trying to explain what and why.
Not registering...
Made me think of Repo Man.
Ordinary people.... Hate 'Em.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwSxBiS0rHY

I love that line. It has become a code word in our family: OFP (which we can say in public).
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so i was all excited to get up early and try a cold morning start....
Operative word- "Was.." Sad

It started right up, and idled a bit, which was good, but eventually went into rump rump rump rich puking fuel and 10:1 AFR and stall/die.
Keeping it running involved more copious quantities of black smoke and violent flailing of the AFM flapper door.
No Bueno.

So, i go back there to move the wiper mount CW to lean it a bit.
This one was in around the middle position of it's adjustment range.
Moving it any leaner at all causes the wiper contacts to fall clear off the board.
Where they will be stuck hanging up against the board itself, unable to move.
No Bueno...


Is there a way to set the stop on the wiper arm somehow??

FWIW, I checked where the bypass screw on the AFM was set after my tuning it to a nice warm idle yesterday.
It was about 9 turns out from the stop.
Colin says it has a total of about 9 turns travel, so it is acting like i need to drill a hole in the flapper after all????

*Sigh*
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After a few tries monkeymonkey-ing to get a cold start,
It took the TB bypass screw being like three full turns out from where it wants to idle warm.
Also the bypass screw on the AFM wants to be out, too, to help with the over-richness issue.

Do these motors really HAVE to be 10:1 AFR at startup to run?
I don't ever remember such a smoky, stinky experience with cold starts before.
Maybe i am just getting used to driving a real car, and old/sensitive to smoke/stink?

Having the bypass screw at the TB way way out seems to give enough air to keep it running through the cold start cycle,
But as soon as it warms up with that setting, the idle starts running away, way up high to 2000 RPM and up.
Can only imagine how high it would be at full operating temp...

Ugh.
Still a long ways away...
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe now my move is to go and fight my way through the cold start,
Get it out on the highway, and set my cruise AFR to where it wants to be (with the wiper clamp as lean as i can get it without falling off the track/board)
And then continue to fight the cold-start fight.

Rump rump rump die... -Bus
Cough, cough, cough (squints through smoky fuel haze) -Me
Beep! Beep! Beep! Beep1 -CO detector
(I unplugged the smoke alarm, now the CO detector goes off)

Aigh!
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try what I suggested. Set the wiper to the richest position, just short of where it will run off the end of the board. Then go back and lean the spring out several notches. This will give full throttle enrichment and leaning at part throttle.

Part of your problem could be the vacuum signature the FPR sees. I suspect you are not seeing as much vacuum at low throttle openings as the FPR was designed to operate with and therefore seeing higher fuel pressures at idle than you want. Don't know how to compensate for this though.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just scanned this topic a bit, but would certainly say it's a very bad idea to drill a hole in the AFM flap. I think it would be quite likely the door doesn't open on idle. Which means the wiper arm wont move, which means the fuel pump won't be powered on after starting.

I got this behaviour just by having a loose hose clamp on the S-boot, so it won't take much.

A bit of a choppy warm-up period isn't strange to engines with a wilder cam. I run a CS myself and when cold it also needs someone feathering the throttle for a bit. Then again, it shouldn't be such a pain in the ass, as in your case...
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My CS runs rough until the CHTs get up to around 200º F or so.

That is about 2 minutes idling in my driveway.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so, another big day.
All day, in fact.
This is now turning into a "wideband" thread...

First the AFM was set to the recommended 60g, and installed.

Then the position of the spring was noted.
Here comes a bit of a rant...
Everybody talks about clicks of the AFM spring adjuster wheel.
There are no clicks, the are teeth and numbers.
WTF is a "Click"!?!
Same with torsion bars, they are splines, and there are combinations of splines.
Anything could be called a "click" FFS.
SO, teeth and numbers...

My wheel has the Mark Of The Beast Upon It.
I am certainly marked, as all AFMs are very unlucky.
Now I know why this has been SO much of a PITA!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So I had a whole day of back and forth on the highway, mixed readings in town and at idle,
the AFM spring was moved at least a dozen times today, and three pages of notes were kept.

It all started where I powered through another puking rich cold-start until the TSII have the computer warm settings, then things seemed nice.
my distributor is a Mallory, and does the 28-12 thing with grey springs.
These springs are light, and my Mallory is one of the newer shitty Mallories.
I did the few tricks to tighten it up a bit, but if the idle nudges over 1100 or so, it will advance a bit and bump the idle to 1200-1250 or so.
So I took a minute after the bus was warm to slow the idle down and make sure that the timing was settling down like it is supposed to.

So off I went on run 1 this morning.
Right away, we knew it was lean lean...
It had a bit of hesitate-hesitate-hesitate at light throttle positions and the LM-1 read in the 16s.
it would lurch and sneeze, and smelled hot and was hard to drive...

So the spring was loosened (CCW - Richer) two _numbers_.
That is, I went form one number 13, past one, to the next number 13(!) Twisted Evil
There are six _teeth_ between each _number_.. Exclamation Exclamation
After loosening this first two numbers (twelve teeth) another mile or two was driven on the highway.
This gave an average reading of about 14.2 to 14.7.
So I went one more number richer. (six teeth)
This started to get us into the 13s , but with a lot of variation.
From around 13.0 to 14.2 AFR...
So I went back leaner another number,
And it produced similar results as before, a lot of 14s.
So I put it back to get some 13s.

So, because I was getting close, I spent some time driving around town,
watching the LM-1, and getting the idle right.
No matter what, the idle AFR wanted to stay around 11.7.
All day, no matter where the spring on the AFM was, it stayed right at 11.7.
The bypass screw would make it a few tenths richer if all the way in, and lean up until about 4 turns out from bottomed.
After 4 turns out, it would make no difference.
Colin says it has about 9 turns of effective range, so this makes NO sense at all.
(And pisses me off)

So, after driving around town, I was wanting to see some higher numbers, like some high 14s or something, but it would never come above mid 12s or so.
With the AFM bypass screw producing NO results above 4 turns, how can I get it any leaner, short of tightening the AFM spring some more???

So after lunch, I drove it a lot on the highway, and took the spring another number or two tighter.
it made the cruise AFM way leaner, up into the high 14s, 15s,
but the idle ratio still would not respond to getting anything leaner than 11.7.

So after a couple more back-and-forths between various numbers, I found a setting that seems fretty nice.
it goes like this:
The highway here is rarely perfectly flat, there are a few slightly rolling hills.
Going slightly uphill (very slightly) at 55 or so it's 13.3 - 13.5.
Slightly downhill 13.9 - 14.1.
Up hill, a smaller hill 13.1.
Going faster, like 68-70MPH on the flat 13.4.
Fast 68-70MPH up a slight hill 13.1.
Down hill 13.9 - 14.2.
If it hits the decal side of things, it goes rich to like 11.7 or more in all cases.
Slight downhill is hard to measure because the decal comes into play and richens things way up, fouling the readings.
Big hill pull (not WOT) 65 MPH 10.9 - 11.4.
Big Hill WOT 10.2 - 10.6.

Basically, as the hills rolled on, slight accel up was low 13s,
Slight downhill was high 13s...

The head temp (tested correct at 212F VDO under #3 plug FWIW) showed around 325 or so most of the day on the highway,
With about 370 or so on the big hill pull.
This is a pretty tough hill between Watsonville and Santa Cruz.
If I'm running too lean, this will definitely show 450+ on this gauge. BTDT.

So, anyhow,
After getting the AFM flapper door spring where I want it to run cool on the highway,
It is disturbingly moved form our ideal 60g.

Ironically, it came right to a paint mark in there...
(Observer expectancy bias no doubt..)

So the low speed running is way too rich,
The idle cannot be corrected,
And I am surely going to be in for a petroleum drowning when starting it up cold.

So basically, back to where I started.
there just doesn't seem to be any way to get the thing to not run painfully lean without loosening that damn flapper spring! Aigh! Evil or Very Mad

So, I guess I am totally out of ideas here.
I mean, air leaks won't cause rich running at idle.
Two AFMs both end up at these settings.
Weird.

Something weird is going on.
Two things I forgot to do when building this motor are degree-ing the cam in,
And making a positive stop for to check the timing scale.
Now, I hate to go Aut and Apahart for these, only to discover them good.
It really has to be something else.
The thing just runs SO damn sweet out on the highway.
I rarely drive it empty,
But just me in it in the cool, dense ocean air, it's hard to get a good A/F reading because it takes such a very light throttle to go 60MPH.
Only when you go 70 or so do you end up pushing the throttle enough to get a reading that makes sense.
the thing runs like a cat, charging past 80 easily...

So that might mean that my timing is advanced and my cam is retarded.

but the way nothing is making sense, I feel like the thing that is retarded... Crying or Very sad

So if anyone has even read this, and has any ideas about WTF could be going on, I'm very grateful, and all ears...
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And reviewing these last couple of posts (thanks guys).
My cold starts are not a matter of choppy idle for a while.
they are a matter of NO idle at all.
Keeping the thing running at a reasonable RPM is near impossible.
It sometimes takes holding a cold motor at 3-4ooo RPM for minutes.
it was so bad on our last camping trip that I couldn't keep it running _at_ _all_ because it got so pukey rich it drowned itself even at 4000 RPM.
It was only motoring it with the starter (aigh!) that got me to a down-hill area, where after it went 100% cold hours later, I was able to get it fired off and limped downhill enough to warm up and drive.
We are in foul-plugs area with this thing.
Not right at start-up, but very soon afterwards, it gets downright comical with black smoke and raw fuel stink for blocks....
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings.

I'm totally digging your help here,
What you say makes sense.

I was thinking that I was going the way you were suggesting.
Taking the wiper arm to as (lean?) as possible, to where it falls off the board,
So the low speed is running lean,
And the flapper spring is only as loose as needed to get cruise AFR in line.

Right?
Or am I out of my tree???

Per Colin's AFM article:

example 2
... rich idle
... lean high speed
*** adjust Static CW until idle is perfect, then adjust (B)Dynamic CCW to help richen the high speed mixture, then trim unintended consequence (probably a tad richer) to the idle with the (C)Mixture screw.


Also,

I have one of those hand-held vacuum pumps.
Maybe at next cold start I can hook up the pump and suck the FPR hard to get the pressure lower and get a better cold start...?

Maybe?

Either way, I have a fuel pressure gauge, and can check again to see if I can create greater vacuum and lower pressure enough to get the cold start in line. And make sure that it is still behaving like it should.[/quote]
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