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Xtremjeepn
Samba Member
Joined: October 21, 2012
Posts: 1539
Location: Colorado
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 Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| EVinVT wrote: |
A dedicated GPS with self contained maps is the solution for hiking. Using my iPhone with Navigon works great for driving where their are cell towers and or WiFi. I suspect that the problem I'm going to have driving through Canada to Alaska is where there is no cell coverage like the in Yukon. The maps are fully loaded, but the iPhone must use cell towers and WiFi to assist with the speed in locating your position.
ALSO, I'm not wanting to pay extra cost for international cell service. Since I must leave the US cell service active for the iPhone GPS to work in areas where there is cell service, I thought removing the SIM card would insure that I would get no surprise high charges when I'm in Canada. Oh well.
The more I think about this, I will just borrow a Garmin from someone for the trip since I already gave away my Nuvi a few years ago..
Thanks for the input. It's been helpful to sorting all this out. |
Just to add to the other comments on your post. You can buy apps that will download ALL THE SAME DATA AND MORE that a stand along GPS has and it will work EXACTLY THE SAME as a dedicated GPS. The cellular signal is only a way to speed up the location process WHEN AVAILABLE. If you don't have an app with maps preloaded then of course you are dependent on the cellular service to download the maps too. This is the downfall.
......however! I've travelled extensively by motorcycle and Jeeps in the backcountry, (lived off the motorcycle for 6mo of traveling) and there are some advantages to a dedicated GPS.
-You can toss batteries in it from any generic store or source! (AA OR AAA, WHATEVER)
-They're NOT your cell phone and only line of communication to the outside world!! I got a phone wet in he the rain forest and spent the next 9 days without a phone, email, text, etc! I now protect my phone like its the most fragile thing on earth when traveling and use a ruggedized GPS (Garmin 650t fwiw) to handle GPS duties. Mostly because it's out in the elements on a motorcycle. In the van I'd probably just use my iPad more!
Fwiw, I also carry a SPOT Emergency GPS locator that will send an SOS signal to the nearest emergency services and my family with GPS coordinates through the satellite should I ever need help! I can send several types of messages including texts thought the satellite if I ever need help in the middle of nowhere! |
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ragnarhairybreeks
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009
Posts: 1890
Location: Sidney B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:08 am Post subject: |
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This is what I use and it works very well for logging road travel where there is no chance of cell coverage ( and cell coverage disappears very quickly ):
- ipad mini plus homemade dash mount (mount shown here http://shufti.wordpress.com/2013/10/30/vanagon-ipad-mini-mount-update/)
- Garmin GLO Bluetooth GPS receiver. Small thing, sits on dash, gets fix quickly. Uses Glonass satellites as well as the US ones.
- Avenza PDF map reader. A great free app that reads geospatial PDFs and places you. PDF maps can be free or paid. I got what I needed free from BC govt. website (topographic maps). There are some very useful PDF maps out there...
- if I know where I am heading to I sometimes cache the satellite data for that area in google earth or apple maps. Satellite image quality for some remote areas around here varies in quality and age. In any case, I can get myself located on the sat image using the Garmin GLO. In fact, using sat images of a location I truly know I am at I can determine just how accurately the gps is placing me.
- I don't use turn by turn hwy nav much but I did d/l Navfree and I try it out now and again. It and the maps are free, local storage of data etc. works ok, have caught it out a few times. Paid app Sysicg seems to be a bit better, faster lock, quicker route recalculation, a little nicer interface.
- I also have MotionX which is geared more towards hiking/biking than van travel. Topographic maps in local storage, lots of route data, waypoints etc etc.
The ipad, gps, and Avenza are a killer combo for my use - logging road travel well out of cell coverage.
Alistair
_________________
'86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com |
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EVinVT
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2013
Posts: 23
Location: Sugarbush, Vermont
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| I'm not following your thoughts on not using the iphone as a GPS. The iphone does NOT need cell coverage or wifi to allow the GPS to work. It works just fine without that coverage. (At least on my iphone 5 it does). I've used it in areas of the US with no cell phone coverage and also in Slovakia where the cell system is incompatible with my carrier (Verizon) and had NO issues using the GPS in the iphone.... |
I was driving through Canada a few weeks ago with my cell phone on, airplane off so Navigon would work with the GPS working, which it was. Suddenly I received a call from the States. I did not answer it since I knew it would cost an arm and a leg to do so. I don't know if I got charged for them putting the call through, but I bet they did. I then turned airplane on and the gps immediately stopped working. This was not a problem in Great Britain where the cell service was incompatible. |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16504
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| EVinVT wrote: |
| dobryan wrote: |
| I'm not following your thoughts on not using the iphone as a GPS. The iphone does NOT need cell coverage or wifi to allow the GPS to work. It works just fine without that coverage. (At least on my iphone 5 it does). I've used it in areas of the US with no cell phone coverage and also in Slovakia where the cell system is incompatible with my carrier (Verizon) and had NO issues using the GPS in the iphone.... |
I was driving through Canada a few weeks ago with my cell phone on, airplane off so Navigon would work with the GPS working, which it was. Suddenly I received a call from the States. I did not answer it since I knew it would cost an arm and a leg to do so. I don't know if I got charged for them putting the call through, but I bet they did. I then turned airplane on and the gps immediately stopped working. This was not a problem in Great Britain where the cell service was incompatible. |
Interesting....I hope they can't charge if the call was not answered. I'll have to check with Verizon since in 2015 we plan on spending some time travelling deep into Canada. Thanks!
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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randywebb
Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2005
Posts: 3815
Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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The iphone may not need cell coverage or wifi to allow the GPS to work, but without cell towers nearby, it will give poor accuracy on location info.
the iphone also sometimes does not always give ANY location info when away from the cell tower network
_________________
1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans. |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16504
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| randywebb wrote: |
The iphone may not need cell coverage or wifi to allow the GPS to work, but without cell towers nearby, it will give poor accuracy on location info.
the iphone also sometimes does not always give ANY location info when away from the cell tower network |
I have not had any issues with GPS accuracy or signal with no cell towers, maybe just lucky so far...
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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syncromike
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2011
Posts: 660
Location: Boise, ID
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| randywebb wrote: |
The iphone may not need cell coverage or wifi to allow the GPS to work, but without cell towers nearby, it will give poor accuracy on location info.
the iphone also sometimes does not always give ANY location info when away from the cell tower network |
I've found that if you leave the wifi radio on in the iPhone it will attempt to always use that first as the primary location. Whenever I'm in the backcountry I always turn off wifi in the settings to both conserve battery life and force the iPhone to only use the GPS sensor for location. I've never had inaccurate or lost location more than 20 feet or so with Wifi disabled, and that's with iPhone 4, 4s, and 5.
The warning that WiFi gives better location resolution is bogus I think, Apple and Google just want your phone to report the location of all Wifi access points for their dubious schemes.
I will say the GPS sensor alone does not update apps fast enough for a usable GPS speedometer or other real-time applications beyond turn-by-turn directions.
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'91 Syncro w/ Country Homes PopTop |
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randywebb
Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2005
Posts: 3815
Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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I am using an iPhone 4. Locations are often off by hundreds of yards.
I'm curious to hear what location accuracy you guys are getting outside the cell tower network and with which phone models.
_________________
1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans. |
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LandSailor
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 315
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Disclaimer: This is just an overview of GPS technology. It's not meant to be comprehensive.
GPS is a purely receiver based technology. A GPS receiver does not require any sort of transmitting back to any sort of network to get a position fix.
Phone based GPS works a little differently than handhelds. They all use the timing of signals from the GPS satellite constellation to triangulate your position on the planet. However, phones use Assisted GPS to get a headstart on their position fix. A-GPS is rough position based on what cell towers are available and can give a decent position.
The GPS constellation is not in a geo-stationary orbit. The satellites are constantly moving. They are essentially extremely accurate atomic clocks that broadcast time and other signals.
While the phone is getting the A-GPS position, it's also attempting to lock on to the satellites. Depending on how long it is since you last got a good GPS fix, it may take awhile for any device to get an accurate placement. If it's been a very long time, you will have to wait for your unit to download the complete current GPS Almanac (the current position of all the satellites) since the phone can't figure out your position if it doesn't know where the satellites should be. (There's also ephemeris data which is data about that particular satellite.)
A-GPS helps things along tremendously. However, if it cannot be turned off (as someone mentioned with the iPhone, not confirming that since I don't use them), then powering the radio is a waste of battery resources when you're in the backcountry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS has more information.
If you have an Android phone, download GPS Status from
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.eclipsim.gpsstatus2
to take a look behind the scenes at what's happening with your GPS signal. It's fascinating. There's probably a similar app for iOS.
That said, I prefer GPS units with physical quad antennas instead of printed circuit boards and a three axis compass. I've had Magellan, Garmin (for a bit) eTrex, and Delorme PN-20. I'm unsure of what style of antenna the PN-20 uses, but the unlimited photo and topo map downloads make the Delorme my favorite. The integration with the satellite communicator makes the PN-40 and PN-60 incredibly agile and my next purchase handheld GPS wise.
After using just my phone for navigation on our PCH trip, I can say that I will buy a dedicated travel GPS before our next big trip. |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16504
Location: Brookeville, MD
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randywebb
Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2005
Posts: 3815
Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Thx for the GPS info - I started with using backpack mounted units and a ground station...
Anybody know what type of antennas the iPhone and iPads use?
_________________
1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans. |
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ragnarhairybreeks
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009
Posts: 1890
Location: Sidney B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Just an update on the Garmin GLO GPS receiver. Software update now allows the unit to support up to 4 bluetooth devices. That's a nice feature, backseat van passengers can now follow along and leave the driver's device up front where it belongs 
alistair
_________________
'86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com |
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flomulgator
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2013
Posts: 950
Location: Leavenworth, WA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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What LandSailor and SyncroMike said are pretty spot on. I have used an iPhone as my exclusive backcountry device for years and have had very good results. But I also use professional grade GPS at work (Trimble products) so I know the limitations.
Have you ever heard the saying that if you have an iPhone buying a point-and-shoot camera is a waste of time, just go to DSLR? Well it's basically the same here. The GPS receiver in the iPhone (and I assume Androids) is as good as any most (not all), consumer-grade GPS handhelds you'd pick up at a place like REI. The standard GPS accuracy for an iPhone is 3 meters, which is good for 99% of navigation needs. And keep in mind I am talking about middle of nowhere, GPS-only signal. A-GPS and wifi assist help with speed and can crunch your location down tighter in Urban areas, but for this purpose it is irrelevant.
The biggest limitation of the iPhone in the backcountry is battery life. If you're serious about conserving you can turn off the data which will help a lot, the device burns a lot of power trying to fetch your email. But when I go hiking I just keep flipping Airplane mode on and off. The device will last for more than a week in Airplane mode, and turning it on for spot location checks only burns a few percent at a time. I have successfully traveled for 72 hours in the backcountry this way and had plenty of battery in reserve at the end.
Unfortunately without a jailbreak you cannot untether GPS and cellular radios though. Obviously if you are navigating back roads this approach will not work as well because you need the GPS "always-on". However if you stop the just the data radio and have a power source (the van) the setup should work just fine.
For backcountry use I use and highly recommend TopoMaps. It's like $3, and storage of an enormous amount of USGS topo quads. For road navigation you'll want something with better road maps though. |
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LandSailor
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 315
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| randywebb wrote: |
| Anybody know what type of antennas the iPhone and iPads use? |
Printed PCB. It's the only thing that will fit in a phone.
If you see a GPS unit with a bump on it, it probably has it. The Garmin RINO pops to mind. The actual term is "quadrifilar antenna". (I had to look it up.)
https://www.google.com/search?q=quadrifilar+antenn...mp;bih=796
http://www.gpsinformation.org/joe/gpsantennaspecs.htm has some info about them, but either through better software or antenna design, my Magellan Meridian always seemed to lock faster and better than the Garmin that I traded away. |
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Red Beard
Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2006
Posts: 463
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I've been using an iphone app called Gaia for hiking, backpacking, and all over Northern Idaho last summer on a road trip. It allows you to download USGS and a buttload of other maps to the phone for offline use. So I just download map tiles for the area I am going to be playing in before I leave home or while I still have access to a cellular network. Then when I am in the woods with no cell connection I can still see my location on a useful map. Found this extremely helpful to navigate a spaghetti network of wilderness roads on our last road trip. Cost is about $20, which is expensive for an app, but by far the most useful GPS map program available for iphone if you are into outdoors stuff (I've tried all the other available apps.) |
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EVinVT
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2013
Posts: 23
Location: Sugarbush, Vermont
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Red Beard. Just to clarify, using Gaia when you don't have a cell connection you still keep the cell connection active, which lets the GPS continue to work? If you turn Airplane on to turn off the cell phone, you would lose the GPS capacity? |
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Red Beard
Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2006
Posts: 463
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| EVinVT wrote: |
| Red Beard. Just to clarify, using Gaia when you don't have a cell connection you still keep the cell connection active, which lets the GPS continue to work? If you turn Airplane on to turn off the cell phone, you would lose the GPS capacity? |
You can turn off cellular data at least and that will not affect GPS function. I don't bother when I am in my van though because I can keep it on the charger (the only reason to turn off cellular data is to prolong battery life in the back country.)
So in a nutshell, for driving around on backroads and logging roads, I have downloaded the map to the phone beforehand and have GPS turned on. NOT in airplane mode because then GPS won't work.
EDIT: To more succinctly answer your question: Yes and Yes. I am two beers into my Friday night so pardon the wordiness.  |
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