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vwtaiwan
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2006
Posts: 111
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 Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 12:31 am Post subject: Interesting Find. BERU 0 040 402 001 |
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I am sharing my interesting testing about German BERU 0 040 402 001 Coil. This is a coil with CDI, for Golf III or Jetta You can find this coil in your VW dealer.
I always have big flat spot of "009 with 34 pict3" and "009 with Kadron". We can not get something like SVDA distributor here in my country. About 2 years ago, I start to try different Japanese coil and other ignition parts if I can improve performance. After lots of testing and burned lots of Electronic ignitions, I find out BERU 0 040 402 001 works really good with 009/PICT3 or 009/KADRON. No more flat spot! Not only 009, I have tried 010 also, and works really good. Plus point looks no need to adjust.
Please check pictures for wiring. Top terminal connect to Ground, Middle terminal connect Point Green Wire, Bottom Terminal connect "15"
By the way, Engine will not start at the first time when you connect to BERU Coil, you need to advance at least 50~60BTDC then start the engine, after engine started, then set your distributor at 10BDTC. That's it. I don't why  about first start need to advance so much. |
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Slow 1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004
Posts: 2106
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| so it works with points? I think that crossrefs to the Telefunken coil used in FI mexi-beetles |
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vwtaiwan
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2006
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| Slow 1200 wrote: |
| so it works with points? I think that crossrefs to the Telefunken coil used in FI mexi-beetles |
Yes, That is the reason I post here. Simply just connect stock point as a earthed signal. |
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ALB
Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2008
Posts: 3483
Location: beautiful suburban Wet Coast of Canada
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Interesting find. Thanks for sharing your work. Al
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On a lifelong mission to prove (much to my wife's dismay) that Immaturity is Forever!! |
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VWSedan2001
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2013
Posts: 1
Location: MEXICO
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Thank you for your photos. I have the same coil in a FInjctn VW (Bug) 2001 in Mexico, after we replaced the one coming from factory, and it works great. Now I want to install a Tachomenter. I'm guessing which is the negative terminal in this type of coil. My email [email protected] |
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vwtaiwan
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2006
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| VWSedan2001 wrote: |
| Thank you for your photos. I have the same coil in a FInjctn VW (Bug) 2001 in Mexico, after we replaced the one coming from factory, and it works great. Now I want to install a Tachomenter. I'm guessing which is the negative terminal in this type of coil. My email [email protected] |
Middle terminal connect to tacho
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Northof49
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2013
Posts: 1759
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Maybe it is firing on the points closing, instead of opening? That could explain the large shift in timing. If that's the case, a simple inverter circuit could solve that, if it is indeed a problem.
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1958 Karmann Ghia owner |
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gt1953
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002
Posts: 13848
Location: White Mountains Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Gotta like the creativity.
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Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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Fred Winterburn
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Ripley Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting Find. BERU 0 040 402 001 |
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Hi VWtaiwan, I've been trying to understand what you have described. A first start up with the ignition very far advanced is probably because the engine was flooded. A large advance will fire a very rich condition when nothing else will. So after that, you got the engine running well with no flat spot using the standard system with points and the Beru coil. I had assumed the flat spot was due to timing in that particular distributor. Perhaps someone can elighten me, but I assumed the timing deficiency that caused the flat spot was due to a retarded condition. If, the Beru coil is meant for a CD ignition, it most probably has a lower inductance which would make the spark weaker but probably have a shorter duration and be possibly slightly more advanced as the rise time would be quicker. The amount of this advance would be miniscule. However, if your points aren't burning, then this is a high resistance coil which usually translates into high inductance. That would do the opposite of what I just described. The only thing that would make me think this coil could be and improvement and that doesn't explain getting rid of the flat spot, is that you are running very wide plug gaps and this coil is high voltage. Once again however, many CD coils have a lower turns ratio so this also doesn't make sense either.
A theory: This is a low inductance coil that takes very little to saturate, ie the coil charge time is very quick. Although the Bosch dizzy is very forgiving as far as points bounce goes, the points will bounce nevertheless. Every time the points bounce, another spark is created. This artificially retards the timing but not so much as to cause cross-fire in the distributor. With a trail of weak sparks every time the points bounce (providing the plug gap is very small) AND assuming the flat spot with the 009 dizzy is due to an over-advance, then one of the trailing sparks is igniting the mixture when otherwise there would be no combustion. VWtaiwan, have you checked on a timing light to see if you have multiple sparks? Grasping at straws, Fred
| vwtaiwan wrote: |
I am sharing my interesting testing about German BERU 0 040 402 001 Coil. This is a coil with CDI, for Golf III or Jetta You can find this coil in your VW dealer.
I always have big flat spot of "009 with 34 pict3" and "009 with Kadron". We can not get something like SVDA distributor here in my country. About 2 years ago, I start to try different Japanese coil and other ignition parts if I can improve performance. After lots of testing and burned lots of Electronic ignitions, I find out BERU 0 040 402 001 works really good with 009/PICT3 or 009/KADRON. No more flat spot! Not only 009, I have tried 010 also, and works really good. Plus point looks no need to adjust.
Please check pictures for wiring. Top terminal connect to Ground, Middle terminal connect Point Green Wire, Bottom Terminal connect "15"
By the way, Engine will not start at the first time when you connect to BERU Coil, you need to advance at least 50~60BTDC then start the engine, after engine started, then set your distributor at 10BDTC. That's it. I don't why about first start need to advance so much. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| This is not a coil "for" CDI, is a coil WITH CDI |
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Northof49
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2013
Posts: 1759
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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Fred, are the points powering the coil, or merely triggering the electronic module that handles all the current to the coil? I would think that is why there is very little current at the points.
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1958 Karmann Ghia owner |
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Fred Winterburn
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Ripley Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Northof49 wrote: |
| Fred, are the points powering the coil, or merely triggering the electronic module that handles all the current to the coil? I would think that is why there is very little current at the points. |
Gosh, The way I read that post I thought he was trying various types of ignition systems and burning them up. After that, it seemed to me that he took a coil specific to a certain CDI and used it with the Kettering system instead. If that's not the case, the reason for the remarkable results are still a mystery to me. Too little information I suppose and now I see it's a very old post anyway, so not likely to get clarification from the author. Fred |
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Northof49
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2013
Posts: 1759
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I agree, still unknown why it removed the "flat spot". The timing is likely the only issue, and its still being timed and advance by the same distributor.
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1958 Karmann Ghia owner |
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vwtaiwan
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2006
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| Fred Winterburn wrote: |
| Northof49 wrote: |
| Fred, are the points powering the coil, or merely triggering the electronic module that handles all the current to the coil? I would think that is why there is very little current at the points. |
Gosh, The way I read that post I thought he was trying various types of ignition systems and burning them up. After that, it seemed to me that he took a coil specific to a certain CDI and used it with the Kettering system instead. If that's not the case, the reason for the remarkable results are still a mystery to me. Too little information I suppose and now I see it's a very old post anyway, so not likely to get clarification from the author. Fred |
The point from dissy create a signal for CDI.
I have no idea why it remove my flat spot, that is the reason I share on the forum.
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Fred Winterburn
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Ripley Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| vwtaiwan wrote: |
| Fred Winterburn wrote: |
| Northof49 wrote: |
| Fred, are the points powering the coil, or merely triggering the electronic module that handles all the current to the coil? I would think that is why there is very little current at the points. |
Thanks, VWtaiwan. Glad you were listening and answered. By the way, I build a CDI that is triggered by points. The only reason I can presume your CDI is performing better with that coil is that the CDI must be weak and for some reason that coil is making the CD do its job better. It can't make up for timing though (at least not normally so let me explain one case where it may) so I wouldn't expect that big an improvement.
Here's the exception, yet I've never heard of it happening on a VW, only cars with very large mechanical advance mechanisms that require very little manifold vacuum to operate. The other requirement is that the vacuum advance has to be made so that there is no hard stop, such that any increase in vacuum will cause it to put on more advance. Now for the history: In the early sixties it was discovered that on some cars (mostly Fords I think) that the CD ignition improved the ignition so much, that under light load, the manifold vacuum increased due to increased combustion efficiency. This increase in manifold vacuum caused the vacuum advance to advance so far that the engine started to run roughly. Once that happened, manifold vacuum would reduce and the engine would run better and then the cycle would repeat. The cure was to limit the total vacuum advance allowed on engines where this happened. If the VW dizzy 009 flat spot occurs due to a retarded timing condition, this could be why the engine is running better. That is, assuming the flat spot is caused by a retarded timing condition, and the CDI is improving combustion such that the vacuum is greater and pulling on more advance, then this could reduce the effect of the so called 'flat spot' by having the ignition slightly more advanced at the moment you plant your foot into the gas pedal. Just a theory. If that theory is correct, a better CD ignition would do the same thing without trying different coils. VWtaiwan, What brand of CDI are you using? In the past, only a few CDIs made such a difference in manifold vacuum. With some CDIs the spark was too weak to improve combustion at light load. Thanks, Fred
Gosh, The way I read that post I thought he was trying various types of ignition systems and burning them up. After that, it seemed to me that he took a coil specific to a certain CDI and used it with the Kettering system instead. If that's not the case, the reason for the remarkable results are still a mystery to me. Too little information I suppose and now I see it's a very old post anyway, so not likely to get clarification from the author. Fred |
The point from dissy create a signal for CDI.
I have no idea why it remove my flat spot, that is the reason I share on the forum. |
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vwtaiwan
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2006
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| Fred Winterburn wrote: |
| vwtaiwan wrote: |
| Fred Winterburn wrote: |
| Northof49 wrote: |
| Fred, are the points powering the coil, or merely triggering the electronic module that handles all the current to the coil? I would think that is why there is very little current at the points. |
Thanks, VWtaiwan. Glad you were listening and answered. By the way, I build a CDI that is triggered by points. The only reason I can presume your CDI is performing better with that coil is that the CDI must be weak and for some reason that coil is making the CD do its job better. It can't make up for timing though (at least not normally so let me explain one case where it may) so I wouldn't expect that big an improvement.
Here's the exception, yet I've never heard of it happening on a VW, only cars with very large mechanical advance mechanisms that require very little manifold vacuum to operate. The other requirement is that the vacuum advance has to be made so that there is no hard stop, such that any increase in vacuum will cause it to put on more advance. Now for the history: In the early sixties it was discovered that on some cars (mostly Fords I think) that the CD ignition improved the ignition so much, that under light load, the manifold vacuum increased due to increased combustion efficiency. This increase in manifold vacuum caused the vacuum advance to advance so far that the engine started to run roughly. Once that happened, manifold vacuum would reduce and the engine would run better and then the cycle would repeat. The cure was to limit the total vacuum advance allowed on engines where this happened. If the VW dizzy 009 flat spot occurs due to a retarded timing condition, this could be why the engine is running better. That is, assuming the flat spot is caused by a retarded timing condition, and the CDI is improving combustion such that the vacuum is greater and pulling on more advance, then this could reduce the effect of the so called 'flat spot' by having the ignition slightly more advanced at the moment you plant your foot into the gas pedal. Just a theory. If that theory is correct, a better CD ignition would do the same thing without trying different coils. VWtaiwan, What brand of CDI are you using? In the past, only a few CDIs made such a difference in manifold vacuum. With some CDIs the spark was too weak to improve combustion at light load. Thanks, Fred
Gosh, The way I read that post I thought he was trying various types of ignition systems and burning them up. After that, it seemed to me that he took a coil specific to a certain CDI and used it with the Kettering system instead. If that's not the case, the reason for the remarkable results are still a mystery to me. Too little information I suppose and now I see it's a very old post anyway, so not likely to get clarification from the author. Fred |
The point from dissy create a signal for CDI.
I have no idea why it remove my flat spot, that is the reason I share on the forum. |
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