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hscess
Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2013
Posts: 9
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 Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:34 am Post subject: CB Street Eliminators for street use |
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I know that there is a little info on thesamba about running the street eliminators on the street, but maybe some people will chime in to give their input. My motor that I have started to get parts for is a 2387. I have a TF-1 case, Cb 4340 86 mm crank, 5.5 Cb H rods with ARP bolts, Wiseco pistons, long cylinder, CB 2300 cam, UDO lifter, 26 mm shadeck oil pump and some other parts. My compression will be 10.5 to 1 and this motor will be a weekend warrior. I have been doing research on the heads. I talked to a performance VW shop not far from me and he says to us street eliminator heads to make some hp. I have been concerned about the cooling with these heads due to 100 deg plus in the summer here in TX. He says he has been in this business for 25 yrs and he says with all of the cooling tin they will run fine. I have also looked at CB super pro, DRd weekend warrior head and also Steve Tims 501 week end warrior heads as well. Need input please. |
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4856
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:48 am Post subject: |
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For a true daily, not a good choice. But a weekend warrior go for it. I am building a very simular engine for street now, 2387, k8 w/1.4's 9.8:1 with s/e's. Here in the central valley we get temps at 110 in the summer with no humidity.
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7214
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:58 am Post subject: |
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DEFINITELY Super Pro´s over Elliminators. ..... In fact, just Super Pro´s of the listed.
The 2300 cam is evil  
T |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| my vote would be super pros. |
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wompninja
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Joined: July 06, 2008
Posts: 2147
Location: Salt Lake City
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| wompninja wrote: |
| That cam is going to suck on the street. |
that all depends on who you are and how you drive it,how it's built&what it's in. |
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Alan_U
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2004
Posts: 1762
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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I Haven't posted in years....
I ran 11.90's all day long with my fairweather daily driver with a 2332 and kroc ported SE heads. IMO the SE heads run hot but they can take the heat probably better than an 044 casting.
People can pick and choose whatever head they desire. I have 2 sets of SE heads ported by Darren K and both sets ran 11.90's. My car has zero fiberglass and ran on 94 octane pump gas. I drove it everywhere but it had tight gears.
For hotstreet application your rpm range is your deciding factor. You wanna run 7500+ rpms??? get some bip pig hole intake ports and big cam to support the rpms. You just have to understand that you'll drive the car and feather the throttle as you adapt you your engine's characteristics.
I ran an 86c and cb2289 and both ran 11.90's in a car that got groceries and made alot of noise LOL!!
big pigholes in the wedgeports will make gobs of power straight out of the box. Spend some beans and get a smart head porter to strategically massage the intake manifolds.
Since I never heard back from you I have no idea what gearing you have. A street/drag car is a package deal. A heavy car with big slow port velocity intake ports at low rpms will bogggggg if you have tall gearing. By that time wave your fast 60ft and fast ET goodbye. I typically ran 1.56 to 1.54 60fts with slicks. This is where the SE heads will be a wiser choice if you ambient temps in the summers are reasonable. Fast port velocity while it supports enough volume to pull great HP numbers.
When i ran my car down the track I'd fall asleep while I granny shifted 6800rpms yawwwnnnnnnnnn and run 11.90's to 12.00 all day long. I used to take the slicks off and put my street tires back on and drive a couple hours back home.......
Indeed I love my SE heads. With my 60ft times you can see I have plenty of torque with my all steel real daily driver.
The cheapest no brainer route is to buy cnc big pighole wedgeports and make a bellybutton engine like alot of guys and make gobs of power  This way no issues with heat.
As I mentioned to you earlier do yourself a favor and silicon/bronze sleeve your engine case. I dont care if you have a mag case or aluminum this is the way you add longevity.
Have fun...
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11.92sec pump gas true daily driver. Who says it cant be done.
No more time for VW's....... |
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AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8501
Location: PNW
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Alan_U
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Joined: July 10, 2004
Posts: 1762
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:01 am Post subject: |
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If you think the SE's will not be an ideal head for the hot summer months of texas you might aswell go for the 044's for additional cooling.
If its a weekend warrior the Super Pro's would be an inexpensive "straight out of box" slap together engine combo. I still have a preference to the 2289 eagle cb cam. Its very much like a web86c. Its not a fast rampy cam but produces power. That cam works great on the street and provides enough breathing room at the track.
CNC heads are great because they are mirrored ports so they are identical. Mind you an excellent head porter can be just as effective.
Has anyone done a HP shootout between the older wedgeport design vs super pro ports? I'd prefer the smaller ports if your only intending on revving 7000 rpms. This is where one may consider higher c/r and even more aggressive cam with the larger wedgeport intake ports to support even more higher rpms that "may" make more HP. You'll never know unless you experiment.
If your not gonna push past 7200rpm I'd imagine the old cima/mahle pistons to hold up to the task. For a weekend warrior I guess you can tolerate piston slap with those wiseco slugs.
The CB 2300 cam has a pretty big duration at .050 lift. An engine with 10.5:1 thats not gonna take advantage of the big dynamic bleed down of compression. This is where you might ramp the static compression to 11:1 or more since theres such large duration in the cam. This is where I'd leave ego and testosterone aside and select a cam based on needs and specific rpm windows. A tight gearbox will be ok but a big lumpy cam with lower c/r will not recover that well as you shift from 1,2,3,4. Too big a cam is often a mistake as well as selecting the wrong head for the wrong application.
My 9.4:1 c/r 2332 with smaller cam recovers power quickly as I go up in gears at the track running and easy 11.90's to 12.00's all day long shifting like an old granny at 6800rpms . If I put a cb2300 cam in my current state I'd very likely slow down my ET since my current intake ports probably wont benefit from the larger duration. I think you can see the logic in looking at the "big picture".
Many different definitions of what a "weekend warrior" is. Having a high strung car might be cool for the weekend. If thats the case go more hardcore and run a lumpier cam with more static compression than 10:5 : 1. Even with 10.5:1 you might not get ping when its super hot outside IF YOUR LUCKY. If your gonna chase the timeslips and want to sacrifice driveability I'd say go big. If you want to compromise but have an enjoyable weekend "ride" the CB 2289 cam will deliver decent street driving and track time.
My quesiton is ???????? What ET do you want at the track???? Simple question???? In the past the older wedgeport with fk46 delivered low 12's for many on pump gas. Is that fast enough?
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11.92sec pump gas true daily driver. Who says it cant be done.
No more time for VW's....... |
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74 Thing
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7390
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| What have you been up to Alan U? Good to see a post from you! |
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Pat D
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Alan_U wrote: |
If you think the SE's will not be an ideal head for the hot summer months of texas you might aswell go for the 044's for additional cooling.
If its a weekend warrior the Super Pro's would be an inexpensive "straight out of box" slap together engine combo. I still have a preference to the 2289 eagle cb cam. Its very much like a web86c. Its not a fast rampy cam but produces power. That cam works great on the street and provides enough breathing room at the track.
CNC heads are great because they are mirrored ports so they are identical. Mind you an excellent head porter can be just as effective.
Has anyone done a HP shootout between the older wedgeport design vs super pro ports? I'd prefer the smaller ports if your only intending on revving 7000 rpms. This is where one may consider higher c/r and even more aggressive cam with the larger wedgeport intake ports to support even more higher rpms that "may" make more HP. You'll never know unless you experiment.
If your not gonna push past 7200rpm I'd imagine the old cima/mahle pistons to hold up to the task. For a weekend warrior I guess you can tolerate piston slap with those wiseco slugs.
The CB 2300 cam has a pretty big duration at .050 lift. An engine with 10.5:1 thats not gonna take advantage of the big dynamic bleed down of compression. This is where you might ramp the static compression to 11:1 or more since theres such large duration in the cam. This is where I'd leave ego and testosterone aside and select a cam based on needs and specific rpm windows. A tight gearbox will be ok but a big lumpy cam with lower c/r will not recover that well as you shift from 1,2,3,4. Too big a cam is often a mistake as well as selecting the wrong head for the wrong application.
My 9.4:1 c/r 2332 with smaller cam recovers power quickly as I go up in gears at the track running and easy 11.90's to 12.00's all day long shifting like an old granny at 6800rpms . If I put a cb2300 cam in my current state I'd very likely slow down my ET since my current intake ports probably wont benefit from the larger duration. I think you can see the logic in looking at the "big picture".
Many different definitions of what a "weekend warrior" is. Having a high strung car might be cool for the weekend. If thats the case go more hardcore and run a lumpier cam with more static compression than 10:5 : 1. Even with 10.5:1 you might not get ping when its super hot outside IF YOUR LUCKY. If your gonna chase the timeslips and want to sacrifice driveability I'd say go big. If you want to compromise but have an enjoyable weekend "ride" the CB 2289 cam will deliver decent street driving and track time.
My quesiton is ???????? What ET do you want at the track???? Simple question???? In the past the older wedgeport with fk46 delivered low 12's for many on pump gas. Is that fast enough? |
The CB #2289 and the Web 86C have slightly more duration than the CB #2300. The #2300 cam has a little more aggressive profile and in my testing, produces 5-8 more H-P than the #2289. I run the #2300 in my own car and love the way it drives, it's a 2387cc with very similar parts. My car has ran 11.80's in the heat and I drive it all the time on the street. Heads are the Ultra wedge ports but I would have used the Super pro's if we had them at the time. I did the super pro port about 6 months after building my engine. In Texas it get's HOT. S.E's will over heat in my opinion.
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Pat, Im too fast slow me downs! |
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hscess
Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2013
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:40 pm Post subject: Street Eliminators |
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| Thanks Pat, thats exactly what I wanted to here. Cb super pro's and cb 2300 cam for my 2387. |
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Alan_U
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Joined: July 10, 2004
Posts: 1762
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Pat what's your mph in the 1/4? What c/r? 11:1? CB 1.4 rockers?
is your wedgeport heads equipped with 46x37mm???
I agree the Super Pro's seems to be the cheapest solution in straight out of the box performance.
For some reason I can see you Pat playing on the flow bench putting hours into massaging personal intake maniolds and tweaks on your own engine
Alot of folks think that simply matching the bottom of the big beef manifolds is good enough to match manifolds to the entry of the intake port of the head.....
Hscess, problem solved........a straight out of the box solution that can cool well 
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11.92sec pump gas true daily driver. Who says it cant be done.
No more time for VW's....... |
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Alan_U
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2004
Posts: 1762
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| 74 Thing wrote: |
| What have you been up to Alan U? Good to see a post from you! |
I've been in hiding....
Heavily into semi professional photography and hif audio. Its odd and rewarding not blowing things up and keeping up with maintenance in a VW
This day and age the $$$ to aircooled vw HP ratio is much cheaper now!! Time is more of a rare luxury so I've changed my focus in my hobbies.
Raising a young family with 3 young daughters...need I say more 
Cool to see familiar names on the forum. I've been in hiding for a long time and still see alot of enthusiasm in the aircooled world.
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11.92sec pump gas true daily driver. Who says it cant be done.
No more time for VW's....... |
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Pat D
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| Alan_U wrote: |
Pat what's your mph in the 1/4? What c/r? 11:1? CB 1.4 rockers?
is your wedgeport heads equipped with 46x37mm???
I agree the Super Pro's seems to be the cheapest solution in straight out of the box performance.
For some reason I can see you Pat playing on the flow bench putting hours into massaging personal intake maniolds and tweaks on your own engine
Alot of folks think that simply matching the bottom of the big beef manifolds is good enough to match manifolds to the entry of the intake port of the head.....
Hscess, problem solved........a straight out of the box solution that can cool well |
My heads have 46x37 valves and flow 223 cfm at 25" The engine is 11-1 compression with CB 1.4 ratio rockers. Believe it or not, the heads are just like we sell, no additional work was done to them. I like the Super pro because it can flow 215 CFM on a head flycut for 11-1 compression and it has better port velocity than the Ultra wedgeport. My MPH was 115 on the 11.80 run. I weighed the car after that run and it was 1930lbs with me and a helmet so it's no potato chip of a car.
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Alan_U
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Joined: July 10, 2004
Posts: 1762
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Pat your making some good power with that kind of ET.
I guess a well dyno tuned fuel injection street car with high compression will be pretty darn fast.
What kind of rpms are you turning to reap that HP?
Pretty cool to see a wedgeport pull that kind of HP numbers. I guess the port volume and high rpms will breathe incredibly well. I dare to say the CE head with exact combo would reap less hp due to the larger cross sectional area of the intake port.
Even with a large duration cam losing compression at low rpms and having high static compression of 11:1 I see it hard for the engine to have good vacuum signal for most IDA/IDF carburetor users when driving on the street. FI users are in a different arena with mapping the fuel curve for driveability.
I can see many trying 11:1 even with a cam bigger than an fk87 pinging running on street gas. I guess results may vary a bit but I've never seen a 11:1 run on pumpgas with no negative effects of heat or ping.....
hmmm super pro's looks like a fun head to try
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11.92sec pump gas true daily driver. Who says it cant be done.
No more time for VW's....... |
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TyeDyeBug
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Joined: February 27, 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Coos Bay
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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2387
cb wedgeports: did more more porting, added 46 intakes and 650 springs with ti retainers.
web 86c cam with pauter 1.5 rockers
11:1 comp
48's and a 2" sidewinder
215 M&H's
Full weight all steel with full interior and cruises on the street great.
11.91@113 with a horrible 1.7 60ft
what rpm's do i run? idk .. i don't run a tach or guages
It will run that 11.90 range all day long in the heat just like a bracket car.
Would I drive it home in that heat...Hmmm
Last edited by TyeDyeBug on Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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rodgersbadassbus64
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Joined: January 24, 2009
Posts: 417
Location: Ortonville, Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Please keep in mind that S E cool thirty percent better than a block of aluminum...That said if you wish to drive on the street in 100 degree weather please listen to those with experience... I have a bus and know what it is like to be afraid to drive home when the weather is on I5 is at a hundred and I still have a hundred and fifty miles till I am on the coast where it is cool again...I listened and learned an I am no longer afraid:) |
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Alan_U
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2004
Posts: 1762
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| TyeDyeBug wrote: |
2387
cb wedgeports: did more more porting, added 46 intakes and 650 springs with ti retainers.
web 86c cam with pauter 1.5 rockers
11:1 comp
48's and a 2" sidewinder
265 M&H's
Full weight all steel with full interior and cruises on the street great.
11.91@113 with a horrible 1.7 60ft
what rpm's do i run? idk .. i don't run a tach or guages
It will run that 11.90 range all day long in the heat just like a bracket car.
Would I drive it home in that heat...Hmmm |
Thats pretty good power. You can comfortably run pump gas with the 86c duration at 11:1 ?? perhaps a bigger cam like the fk89 can run higher c/r on pumpgas due to sloppy dynamic bleed of compression even at 11:1 or higher. Most 11:1 cr engiens with 86c and smaller will ping badly and people are supplementing with toluene or mix of racegas and pump gas juice. Retarding timing will reduce hp and increase combustion temps too.
You see my 9.4:1 c/r engine is a as fast as many cars out there with higher strung drag engines in streets clothing. I drive it with pump gas and shift at 6800 rpms. This is where SE heads in the cooler ambient temps is an impressive head but will potentially lack the larger volume intake ports of an CE or wedgeport.
Thing about many readers/lurkers on the forums get partial stories on impressive ET's and hp. Pat's street engine is killer but 99% of the people in the real world cannot use a dyno to maximize every ounce of HP from an engine combo. Infact most people with impressive engine components are probably only utilizing 75+ % of the potential power. You can only do so much with a wide band oxygen sensor for tuning.
Man the price of performance VW parts has dropped for the potential you get.
Tyedyebug, you better double check your ti retainers if you have a real street car. Its not fun when the keepers pull through the hole as the ti retainers get pounded. The hole gets marginally larger and dropping valves is not fun. This is not unheard of.....
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11.92sec pump gas true daily driver. Who says it cant be done.
No more time for VW's....... |
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