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Tracking down Eurovan misfire
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soissisc
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:29 pm    Post subject: Tracking down Eurovan misfire Reply with quote

Hello all. I have a 99 GLS. Last week, I had a coolant Tee break and douse the engine with coolant. It was the Tee on the line from the head to the front heater core. I have fixed the tee but then had a #4 cylinder misfire and a #5 cylinder misfire. Overnight, the #5 seemed to go away. To get rid of #4 I had to pull the plug wire and the plug and dry everything out. The spark plug recess was full of coolant. After that, all the codes were clear.

Next day, I took the van for a drive and I noticed a misfire again. I checked the codes and had a #5 cylinder misfire as well as a P1217 Cyl.5-Fuel Inj.Circ. Short to B+. That is a new one to me.

I image these are because of the coolant bath everything took, and the temps outside being around 0 to 10 F, and nothing has had a real chance to dry out much.

Next day I dug into #5 spark plug. Pulled the plug wire and the spark plug recess was full of coolant. That end of the plug wire was soaked as well. I dried all that out as best I could and put it back together.

Over the weekend, I got some driving time on the van. Started out running smooth, and no codes. The first 20 miles were great (50 - 60 mph freeway driving). Ran fine, no codes, normal power etc.

Then all of the sudden I could tell the misfire was back. Power was down and when I came to a stop I could feel the miss at idle. Did a scan and #5 misfire was back, as well as P1217 Cyl.5-Fuel Inj.Circ. Short to B+. I had to drive some more and #4 misfire came and went. But #5 misfire stayed.

Limped home... and I did some investigation, I checked the 10 pin injector harness connector there by the coil pack / valve cover, it looked nice and dry inside, so I thought that was ok. I checked the plug wires at the coil pack, all seems dry there. Checked for spark and there is good spark at the coil pack. I even swapped out the coil pack to see if that may change anything... no change. I then swapped out the plug wires for 5 and 4 with the old ones I just replaced, and that gave no change. When I pull the wires at the coil pack, it becomes more noticeable that that cylinder is not firing. Like it could be just partially firing when this misfire is occurring... does that make sense?

Also, I did not change out these affected plugs after they were soaking in coolant for while. I just dried then out (propane torch, appeared warm and dry on the outside). Would these plugs be intermittently "ruined" by the coolant soak? I may replace these plugs in a last ditch effort to get a change before digging in deeper.

Being I am grasping at straws here, I started looking into the thought that I may need to take a close look at the injector wiring to see what I can find. Looking at the wiring diagram, it all makes pretty decent sense, except one area regarding that Terminal 30 B+. See the attached pic, it says that B+ runs from the fuse box and out to a connector (TV2)... But I wonder where that would be, and where would they go from there? I am sketchy at best at understanding these diagrams, then they throw that at me, jeez! I "think" that the ecm is on the inner fender beside the battery and the FI wiring runs around the front and down below the rad and then jumps over to the engine. Would that be correct? I was thinking of tracing wires looking for cracked insulation, wetness, etc.

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Couldn't I check the ohm reading on each injector from the 10 pin connector - to see if there is anything fishy there before commiting to taking the intake manifold completely off for full access to the harness?

Anyway, any help / advice would be greatly appreciated. Misfires... P1217 - Blah! Sorry for the long post and thanks for listening.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,


The 2.8L VR seems prone to injector failures. I had a '99 that I fought with the same code. I didn't have the coolant dousing but otherwise the symptoms and description were verbatim.

You could first try getting the van into a warm heated work space and run a fan on the engine and let it sit 24+ hrs. Next inspect the harness. However, I strongly suspect that you have faulty injectors. I elected to replace all 6.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I too went through injector troubles on my long gone 01. Had a misfire, and tracked it down to an injector, forget which one. One has to tear the front of the van out to get to an injector, so I thought to myself,"I ought to replace them all while I'm in here" Then I found out they were near $250 each and said to myself,"I'm just going to replace the on that's bad" About a month later I had another misfire. Replaced the other five, enjoyed a nice road trip, and sold the van. Going through that made me hate that van. I just couldn't believe that VW would build something so impossible to service. I was always scared to death that I'd have trouble with the auto trans. Now I have a diesel Vanagon. It will not go 80 like the eurovan on the highway, but I love it anyway.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW: I found a place in CA that sold rebuilt injectors for <$500 shipped. I was able to replace all 6 instead of the 2 I would have been to replace through the dealer for the same cost.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a lot of work, but you can often swap parts around to see if the misfire moves to another cylinder. Move one part at a time though.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last night I had a chance to work on it a little. I changed out the plug and wire on #5. The plug seemed to be "wet" looking. The wire looked OK. I also replaced #4 plug and wire. The plug looked the same as #5 but the wire had an obvious place where it had been arcing. Both plugs looked wet in the electrode area and smelled like fuel.

So I swapped out with good dry plugs (used) and different (used, but previously OK) wires. We will see if this makes a change.

I did not get it all put back together last night. Today will be the day.

If the misfires persist then I will be diving in deeper for some harness and injector checking I guess. Europarts SD lists them for $110, if that turns out to be the problem.

I have had the engine and trans out of this van already so anything seems not so bad in comparison to that, lol.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you are on to it. I have seen a sparkplug foul from fuel and never be useable even after cleaning. When the cylinder stopped firing it would have quickly flooded. Once the spark plug was wetted down, you were done. The next thing to happen is the rings would have washed down from the excess unburned fuel and the compression would have dropped. I think you will be fine.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This week was tough to get any garage time. I took a look at the injector harness from the ten pin connector at the intake back toward he ECM. Inside that plastic flex tube all the wires were very wet with coolant so I cleaned every wire from the connector back to the headlamp. I did not see any cracked insulation or any signs of arcing.

I also checked the ohm reading for all the injectors from the ten pin connector and everything gave me around 16 ohms. This was difficult so I would not hang my at with the accuracy of that.

All of this yielded no change in the condition. Still misfire on #4 and #5 as well as P1217 Cyl.5-Fuel Inj.Circ. Short to B+.

I am planning on removing the intake tomorrow to take a closer look at the injector harness as well as the injectors themselves.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got the intake wrestled out of there. The injector wire harness looks OK, albeit a bit grimy. All injectors test at around 15.5 ohms except #5 it reads 5.5 ohms. So looks like #5 needs to be replaced, at least.

Should I have the rest sent off and cleaned / tested? I would like to try to get this thing back together by this coming weekend... I am not in a good spot to replace all the injectors with new right now. I am leaning toward replacing #4 and #5 since those two were giving misfires. At 160K + miles all the injectors could be on borrowed time. I thought since I was in there it might be good to get them all cleaned and tested.

Any good suggestions / advice would be appreciated.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it were mine I'd get them cleaned and tested. It's not that expensive.....usually. YMMV.

These guys are good.

http://www.witchhunter.com/
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Contact Aaron @ Boraparts.com. I sourced mine through him. IIRC he has a company in CA that he uses. I just found the receipt. I paid slightly over $300, mind you that was 3 years ago. I chose to do all six even though I was in the same boat as you with two acting up. I'm not a fan of repeating jobs.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked into witch hunter for servicing my injectors and they replace the o rings, screens, etc for under $25 a piece. I am considering that. Although, when I separated the upper manifold from the lower manifold last night, I broke 2 injectors... and not the bad one and not the questionable one. So I keep getting in deeper and deeper... VW! Sandwiching the injectors between the upper and the lower at an angle... that'll make you want kick a kitten.

There are a lot of used injectors out there, as these are the same as all the jetta MK4 VR6 injectors. But then your looking at $20 a piece in o rings too. Ugh.

So as of right now, I am looking at getting a hold of some used injectors, and shipping them to get serviced, cleaned, tested, new o rings, etc.

I am going to call witchhunter and make sure that I am getting what I think for the price.

The bad thing about witchhunter is that they are in Washington (state) and I am in PA. I wish I could find someone comparable on the East Coast.

I guess when I do the math, I may just buy 6 injectors. How do I contact Aaron @ Boraparts?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had this tidbit of info passed on to me by a member on another forum.

Quote:
An alternative to cleaning the stock injectors is buying some Edelbrock injectors. The cost will be about $25 per injector over what you will pay for the cleaning. A little less if you take shipping into account.

Edelbrock produces aftermarket FI conversion kits for V8's under the Pro-Flo moniker. A lot of them use the Weber/Magneti Marelli pico injectors similar to the ones on the 12V VR6 Eurovans and Golfs.

The AES and AFP engines use IWP 022's. These are about 215cc flow units with a single 24 degree cone and 60 degree connector. The early 2000 Pro-Flo kits used a 3574 part number. This is actually a Weber/Magneti Marelli IWP 006 pico injector. Although this is not exactly the same, it is close and can tell you they work. The spray pattern is two narrow streams that are about 10 degrees wider than the stock ones. They flow a little less at 185 cc but there is a lot of headroom in the duty of these babies for a stock engine. I have these very ones in one of my Euovans right now and have had them in there for more than 10K miles.

The beauty of this is you can buy them for about $55 brand new with free shipping but there are other caveats. They do not have the air shrouds on them. If you are careful, the ones from your old dogs can be transferred to these. The connector angle is 45 instead of 60 degrees but as of yet have not found this to be an issue.


As I posted there, that is some great info! I had been looking at injectors on the Summit site and saw those and they "looked" similar from the picture, but my knowledge of the injector specs pretty much ended right there. It is pretty nice to get some real world feedback on using those exact injectors as replacements.

As far as the air sleeve, I had one separate from the injector body as I tried to extract it from the lower manifold. So I did learn first hand that the sleeve comes off and there is an additional O ring inside there. Man, mine were so stuck in the lower manifold, I had a heck of a time pulling them out of there. I actually broke an electrical fitting off of one injector, pulled one out of the air sleeve and destroyed the sleeve getting it out of the lower manifold. Neither were the one that tested bad coil resistance. Grrr.

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Link to summit part:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-3574/overview/

I have purchased a few used, lower mile injectors to replace my bad one and the other carnage I created. My current plan is to ship my injectors to witch hunter for cleaning and testing. Had I not already purchased a few used ones to supplement what I have, I may have tried these Summit injectors. Seeing how a set of O rings for one injector is around $20 per injector, the $22 per injector cleaning fee seemed like a no brainer to me. In the mean time I have a great chance to clean my intake manifold.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not looked at the Summit link, but there are two things you need to compare when trying replacement injectors. One is the ohm rating. There are two types of injectors, low impedence and high. Second you need to know the rated flow rate. It is either per min or per hour and the values posted are based on the industry standard of 43psi.

If you can get the injector number off of the injectors you have and search it on Google, I am sure you can find the rating for it and the impedence. You can then be sure you get the right ones.

The injector physical size and the electrical connector are also considerations but are more obvious.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, 99 eurovan GLS, finally back on the road pretty steady, finally! Picked up a few previously used injectors of varying degrees of price, quality, and delivery. Had the lot cleaned, tested, and o-ringed. Had the intake soaked and cleaned up pretty nice (thank you Pine-Sol). Got the intake assembled and installed, and all put back together. Seems to be running well, no misfires sensed or showing up.

However -


With the recent return of spring like temps to Western PA, It has become crystal clear that the heater has turned into an unstoppable force. When temps were in the single digits outside, it seemed OK. Then I recently noticed the climatronic unit flashing upon start up of the van. Then the first strange occurrence was the rear heater blower did not blow. Then days later, that went back to blowing, however, the heat in the front has only one output - full blistering hot. Fan speed is controllable. Even if I put it on AUTO and set it to 65, it still blasts serious heat. If I turn it completely off, the fan stops but if you get up to 60 - 70 mph it lets hot air out of all the vents. So much so that you have to open the window to get some cool air. I can switch between defrost, floor, dash, etc, and those flaps work.




I currently have no way to read any error codes in the climatronic system. It seems that maybe the blend flap is not working right now, stuck on full heat only?




Is there anything I could try? Any ideas? I had replaced the heater core a month or so back, and the system seemed to function properly up until about a week ago. Is there a servo motor that controls the main blend flap? Is it vacuum controlled? Could I have mixed up the vacuum lines when I was in there? I replaced my foam with metal tape, could that have oozed and stuck the flap into one position? A dying ignition switch?




Any suggestions are well appreciated.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In bringing the thread up to date... I had an issue with my blend door - it was stuck in the full heat position. I had replaced the foam on it when I replaced my heater core, and I used silver HVAC tape. An edge had the adhesive exposed and that was stuck to the heater box. All that I had to do was remove the panels on the floor in front of the shifter, and I could reach inside the box and free the door. All has been well since.

Fast forward to now - I am having the symptoms of a failing injector in #3 cylinder. I checked the resistance of the injectors through the harness connector by the coil and #3 shows only around 4 ohms. So this to me means an injector replacement.

Two things. One, I would like 5 minutes alone with the guy who signed off on the design of the intake and sandwiching those injectors between the upper and lower intake manifold. Then that one bolt down behind the alternator...argh! Two - I wish I could just drop $600 + on a set of brand new injectors. But, I can't.

Occasionally I am also getting a cam position sensor error. Any ideas on that? Just replace? Or any other symptoms that may lead to a diagnosis.

Thanks,

Mark

99 EV GLS
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have some insight. I have done many of those vr injectors. -some customers just couldn't afford all 6 so some I had to go into multiple times. Ouch for them. The coolant leak could have caused a carbon track on coil pack.? Or down a wire where you can't see. As for that cam pos code. You probably don't wanna know its timing chain guide time.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guides are fairly new. I was thinking possibly the sensor?

Once again bringing the thread up to date...

Replaced injector #3. Solved the misfires for about a week or so. Then #2 started acting up. You could touch the connector with your finger and make it work well and let go and back to not working. So I replaced #2 as well.

Water pump started leaking, so I carved out some time to replace that. Not a bad job except took a bit of extra effort to get that pump out of the block. But in the end, I won and got it all back together. Original pump was in there, plastic impeller intact. Replaced with cast "metal" impeller.
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Having some clunking in the front end while driving, and noticed some play in the tie rods. Replaced inner and outer tie rods on both sides but clunking still present. Got out the pry bar and checked the ball joints and both uppers show some slop in the vertical direction. Both bottoms seem tight but both boots are torn. So I ordered the ball joint set from Europarts-SD. Maybe this weekend I can get those swapped out? Then an alignment and hopefully no more clunking!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anybody know offhand what size the triple square torx is for the screws that hold that lower ball joint on there?

Am I looking at using a pickle fork to get the upper ball joint separated from the hub? I do not see enough room in there to get a puller set up.

Thanks in advance.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Often one or two whacks with a decent hammer on the knuckle that holds the end of the joint and it will pop it free without a tuning fork or puller. Leave the nut on slightly incase you miss with the hammer. This method works more often than it doesn't.
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