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Printed headliners, should we carry them?
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Should TMI carry printed headliner material???
Yes
86%
 86%  [ 25 ]
No
13%
 13%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 29

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TMI Products
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject: Printed headliners, should we carry them? Reply with quote

Just trolling around I see some people looking for a "printed" headliner. Is there a big demand for this? I have received a few calls and im going to look into this more.
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Printed as in looks like perforated but no holes?
The OG stuff isn't really printed, the outer layer is perforated but the backing isn't so it looks like holes but they don't go through. I'd be into a correctly assembled headliner made from that with the fully perforated panels at each end like VW did it.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit: nevermind
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Printed as in looks like perforated but no holes?
The OG stuff isn't really printed, the outer layer is perforated but the backing isn't so it looks like holes but they don't go through. I'd be into a correctly assembled headliner made from that with the fully perforated panels at each end like VW did it.


Wrong. I have an original '65 that was on the road from 1964 until 1970. I picked it up in 2005. The foremost part where the visors are, the sides around the "B" pillars, under the rear quarter windows, the "C" pillars and above and under the rear window are all printed black dots on white vinyl. The only section that is perforated is right above your head in the front and back seats.


TMI, YES not only should you carry this, you NEED to make this standard in your replacement headliners so they are correct and true to the factory.

I'm not trying to be an ass when I say this but, why do you even have to ask this question? Shouldn't your business strive to make your interiors as correct as possible? This should have been done a LONG time ago in the beginning, when you started making replacement headliners and not be a thought NOW decades later.

Bugs aren't the only VW's to use this so ask in the other forums as well.
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Last edited by Keith on Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mario- Bradford here again.

YES! My '66 deluxe bus has a bunch of beautiful interior materials going in right now- but the headliner kit (holes throughout and the wrong color) is almost too ghastly to install! I think busdaddy's 'no' vote should be revoked just due to lack of knowledge about earlier headliners- no offense busdad. Later- you will find it to be the only no on record.

I am very certain not only will the holdouts for printed material headliners buy kits- the aftermarket trimmers will LOVE having printed material stock available for repairs and splices.

I have a beetle that needs only 1 foot of that material to repair mouse damage. This material will make the whole community nicer- might even cure rabies.

Bradford

PS- I second the suggestion that all other "types" are able to chime in. Thanks again for your participation here Mario!
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TMI Products
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keith wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
Printed as in looks like perforated but no holes?
The OG stuff isn't really printed, the outer layer is perforated but the backing isn't so it looks like holes but they don't go through. I'd be into a correctly assembled headliner made from that with the fully perforated panels at each end like VW did it.


Wrong. I have an original '65 that was on the road from 1964 until 1970. I picked it up in 2005. The foremost part where the visors are, the sides around the "B" pillars, under the rear quarter windows, the "C" pillars and above and under the rear window are all printed black dots on white vinyl. The only section that is perforated is right above your head in the front and back seats.


TMI, YES not only should you carry this, you NEED to make this standard in your replacement headliners so they are correct and true to the factory.

I'm not trying to be an ass when I say this but, why do you even have to ask this question? Shouldn't your business strive to make your interiors as correct as possible? This should have been done a LONG time ago in the beginning, when you started making replacement headliners and not be a thought NOW decades later.

I ask because as you know, you cannot find this material easily.We have many sources we deal with worldwide, but it will not be cheap. People want the best correct part for their car, but when they hear the price, all of a sudden its not so important.I get hundreds of emails and calls a week from all over the world. I only recieved 1 call on this type of headliner in the past month.Based on the responce here so far, a "printed" headliner wasnt even available.If this is a indication of what will happen after i push to source this fabric and stock it, it doesnt look good.It comes down to the demand of the product.

I will see what other responses come through.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hitest wrote:
Mario- Bradford here again.

YES! My '66 deluxe bus has a bunch of beautiful interior materials going in right now- but the headliner kit (holes throughout and the wrong color) is almost too ghastly to install! I think busdaddy's 'no' vote should be revoked just due to lack of knowledge about earlier headliners- no offense busdad. Later- you will find it to be the only no on record.

I am very certain not only will the holdouts for printed material headliners buy kits- the aftermarket trimmers will LOVE having printed material stock available for repairs and splices.

I have a beetle that needs only 1 foot of that material to repair mouse damage. This material will make the whole community nicer- might even cure rabies.

Bradford

PS- I second the suggestion that all other "types" are able to chime in. Thanks again for your participation here Mario!
Thank you. It would also be helpful for some of the more knowledgable people to let me know what years this was used and on what cars/busses. This information would make a better argument to source this material
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm...., perhaps it's a bus only thing (I haven't had a bug late enough to use the vinyl, just mohair), or maybe some of you should visit the eye doctor or invest in a magnifying glass Smile

Here's an OG headliner in a 71, if you look real close you can see the fuzz from the backing poking out in those dots (see the little squiggles?, those are fibers), the dots also turn a dark color when you get them wet or dirty, printed on dots wouldn't do that since they wouldn't be porous:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And one beside a perforated section for comparison:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm fairly confident my 66 std and 65 DC had the same stuff, I'll look next time I'm where they are stored.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TMI Products wrote:
Keith wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
Printed as in looks like perforated but no holes?
The OG stuff isn't really printed, the outer layer is perforated but the backing isn't so it looks like holes but they don't go through. I'd be into a correctly assembled headliner made from that with the fully perforated panels at each end like VW did it.


Wrong. I have an original '65 that was on the road from 1964 until 1970. I picked it up in 2005. The foremost part where the visors are, the sides around the "B" pillars, under the rear quarter windows, the "C" pillars and above and under the rear window are all printed black dots on white vinyl. The only section that is perforated is right above your head in the front and back seats.


TMI, YES not only should you carry this, you NEED to make this standard in your replacement headliners so they are correct and true to the factory.

I'm not trying to be an ass when I say this but, why do you even have to ask this question? Shouldn't your business strive to make your interiors as correct as possible? This should have been done a LONG time ago in the beginning, when you started making replacement headliners and not be a thought NOW decades later.

I ask because as you know, you cannot find this material easily.We have many sources we deal with worldwide, but it will not be cheap. People want the best correct part for their car, but when they hear the price, all of a sudden its not so important.I get hundreds of emails and calls a week from all over the world. I only recieved 1 call on this type of headliner in the past month.Based on the responce here so far, a "printed" headliner wasnt even available.If this is a indication of what will happen after i push to source this fabric and stock it, it doesnt look good.It comes down to the demand of the product.

I will see what other responses come through.


My original '64 Sunroof also has both printed and punched dots. The sunroof cover has printed dots, and there is a heat-sealed strip down the middle of it (not sewn). I bought a headliner from Wolfsburg West and was so unhappy with it that it's still in the box 5-6 years later. It was punched dots all over and the headliner seam was sewn instead of heat sealed.


I think part of the problem is that VW's have always been "cheap" cars and most owners wanted cheap replacement parts. That's not always the case any more; there is a steadily growing movement to preserve and restore the "correct" details that have been lost over the years due to previous owners installing generic replacement parts. Our cars are now 40+ years old and not many people drive them daily. The hobby can't grow if all we have are parts sources that only sell cheap replacement parts- we've shot ourselves in the foot for years because of that. Please step up and become one of the few companies we look to to find correct replacement parts! I'd gladly be wiling to pay up for a 100% (not 99 %) correct headliner for my '64 since the rest of the car is all original. Do it, get the word out that you're making/selling correct parts and the hobbyist that appreciate correct parts will come knocking.

While we're on the subject of correct interior parts, and you supply interior parts... How about making correct '64 only seat covers? I sure could use a set of blue cord #74 pattern covers!
Very Happy


Here are pics of my original headliner.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




This one shows the heat sealed seam, there's a flap on the back side that glues to the sunroof cover frame. This was punched dots with a sewn flap on the WW headliner.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Pillar post shot. The pillar cover is solid vinyl with a different grain.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.





This seam overlaps, not folded under or sewn.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Separate panel around rear window.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




This is why I need a headliner. The rest is in pretty decent original condition but the rear window area was hard as a rock and eventually fell apart. I HATE to put incorrect parts on this car as it is original paint still.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my mouse damage in my '63 bug.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f369/buspilots/hitestman/63bugmouse004.jpg

It has been left unrepaired because of lack of available good OG material. Clearly a printed area as shown previously in theastronaut's great post. I checked my '66 deluxe bus headliner this morning. It has printed material all the way back to the 'B' pillars. Now Mario, I'd honestly be inclined to not repair my bug with new material, but I would seriously stop right now- and NOT replace my '66 deluxe headliner with the perforated one I have. I would stop right now, and wait for TMI to mail me a kit for my otherwise original 13 window.

As TMI considers this material- please look back at the development of other products you have brought to market- and your competitor's. Folks buy door panels from you and seat kits because they now look and install correctly. Old fashioned hog ring cover kits plummeted in sales in part because you folks produce something more accurately installed and finished like factory. Now you would expect the cover and seat padding materials to sell at a 1:1 rate, right?

No. Why do folks like me buy your covers, but buy the (horsehair style) seat padding elsewhere (like from Wolfsburg West)? Because folks who want accurate interiors want to rebuild their seats with the right feel- and close-to-faithful materials. Right now, folks are forced to combine products for the right interior- though your company has already done all the fitting, pattern work, R&D and QC to make the best headliners around.

Just throwing another testimony in the ring. Sorry to be so wordy- and I again commend your process Mario. Whew! I need a beer. Cool

Sincerely, Bradford
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I wonder what the nut looks like.



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My original headliner was so thin, cheap, cheesy and ugly I couldn't wait to get it out of there. No way did I want to put real thin cheap vinyl back in only to have it easily rip if you sneezed too close to it.

So heavy solid bright white vinyl (thanks Sewfine) went back in. 16 years and daily use later and it has proven to be a good choice. Stock original sometimes is real cheap quality. And I have no problem with it not being original. However I realize that originality is extremely important to a lot of folks. We all have varying opinions.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desertbusman wrote:
My original headliner was so thin, cheap, cheesy and ugly I couldn't wait to get it out of there. No way did I want to put real thin cheap vinyl back in only to have it easily rip if you sneezed too close to it.

So heavy solid bright white vinyl (thanks Sewfine) went back in. 16 years and daily use later and it has proven to be a good choice. Stock original sometimes is real cheap quality. And I have no problem with it not being original. However I realize that originality is extremely important to a lot of folks. We all have varying opinions.


The headliner in my post is 50 years old and has held up very well with no special care. It's still soft and has some elasticity. The original headliners weren't "cheap", if they were they wouldn't last that long.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i recently paid all the money for a sewfine after having a issue with the last TMI headliner i installed. the sewfine was no better than the TMI, so i sent it back and bought a TMI

it seems to be a better product than what i was ready to shitcan last time, nice and thick and seems correct...we'll see when its time to install it.

i don't care holes or printed...i just want it to fit properly.

and please, talk to the meathead in packing...my bus headliner came folded like a pretzel...it would take 2 seconds to 1) roll it up nice or 2) fold it on the seams.

jamming it in a box and trying to get the wrinkles out pre install sucks. i would GLADLY pay a few more dollars in shipping if it were packaged with more care. if cost is an issue, f*ck the cry babies...it's a restoration...deal with it, plus we need to weed out as much ill fitting crap as we can

all that said, i have the headliner from my 70 bus that i surgically removed from the bus. after i get the new headliner in, i would be willing to ship it to you for a review of your patterns. also have one from my single cab i would donate to the cause so to speak
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Hmmm...., perhaps it's a bus only thing (I haven't had a bug late enough to use the vinyl, just mohair), or maybe some of you should visit the eye doctor or invest in a magnifying glass Smile

Here's an OG headliner in a 71, if you look real close you can see the fuzz from the backing poking out in those dots (see the little squiggles?, those are fibers), the dots also turn a dark color when you get them wet or dirty, printed on dots wouldn't do that since they wouldn't be porous:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And one beside a perforated section for comparison:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm fairly confident my 66 std and 65 DC had the same stuff, I'll look next time I'm where they are stored.


I suggest you inspect some later bugs and you will see they are in fact PRINTED as well as perforated. Besides my original '65, I have part of an original sound deadening pillow as well and that is made from scraps of the printed dot headliner material.

Also, what asshats are actually casting "NO" votes ?! Do you NOT want correctness? A company comes on here asking how it can make its products true to original and CORRECT and you cast a "NO" vote ? Don't bitch then when you get ill fitting and incorrectly made parts from now on.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:

all that said, i have the headliner from my 70 bus that i surgically removed from the bus. after i get the new headliner in, i would be willing to ship it to you for a review of your patterns. also have one from my single cab i would donate to the cause so to speak
This is the kind of feed back and support i need.If one of our products doesnt fit right, somebody telling me "your prodcut fits like ****" does me no good. ALL of our products are made from original patterns taken from vehicles and test fit on those same vehicle.We have a stock pile of seat frames,doors, etc. as well as purchase vehicles to the point where the warehouse is being with project vehicles.

If our pattern for your bus is different then your original, i would gladly take yours to correct the issue. I will be in touch with you Monday about this.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sort of wished I still had kept my '70 beetle. that and was still employed.

For what it's worth, a '70 model's headliner was pretty much almost identical as theastronaut's '64 liner (minus sunroof), with mix of dots & perforation.

Here is a recent example of jderianSF's 1970 original headliner..
Front around Sun visor and mirror. [Click or enlarge picture to see the printed dots on second row.. as they're a little faded].
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Rear:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Rear above (with printed dots a little faded):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Right Rear-side Quarter:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



There wasn't any photos of the pillar. but going by fuzzy memory (if I recall correctly) - it was solid also as in theastronauts pics.
Hopefully someone will post a correction or confirm.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mario- it's time to move this into the bus, bug and type 3 threads for an accurate count- it is not reaching your target audiences yet.

Everett, can a thread like this be posted in three or more other pertinent forums- or am I just dreaming of total exposure to this awesome headliner?

Harried and Hopeless, Bradford
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EverettB wrote:

I wonder what the nut looks like.



'62 L390 151, '62 L469 117, '63 L380 113, '65 L512 265, '65 L31 SO-42, '66 L360 251, '71 L12 113, '74 ORG 181

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey now!, don't go accusing me of voting no here, in fact I have yet to cast any vote. I dream of the day when a supplier steps up to make thier product as close to the real deal as possible, props to TMI for dipping a toe into the market research end of things! Those all perforated headliners not only look odd, they are a PITA where they glue on because the glue comes out the holes, blah!.
My concern is printed dots are not the same as partly punched dots, not only from an appearance perspective but how will they wear on things like the rear window surrounds in a bus where passengers lean on them all the time?, if all those dots wear off either due to wear or wiping off some smeared glue how will that look?, my bus is no garage or trailer queen, it gets used every day for everyday stuff. Installing a bus headliner is a huge job and in the interest of not doing it twice I want the right stuff just like VW used 40 or 50 years ago, is that too much to ask?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:

My concern is printed dots are not the same as partly punched dots, not only from an appearance perspective but how will they wear on things like the rear window surrounds in a bus where passengers lean on them all the time?, if all those dots wear off either due to wear or wiping off some smeared glue how will that look?
This opens another can of worm.Lets say we do find this fabric if its available. How long should we test it for color fastness, fading or the dots wiping away. What of the dots are too dark or wrong color.

Does anybody know for sure what color they are and not based off a 50 year old piece of faded material? Its a lot of work, but i'll keep looking to into and bringing it up.
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Location: Conejo Valley, CA
KTPhil is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TMI Products wrote:
Does anybody know for sure what color they are and not based off a 50 year old piece of faded material? Its a lot of work, but i'll keep looking to into and bringing it up.


Best bet is to look at a swatch that was hidden from UV, like under the visor mount in the photo above. A photo will not show color correctly no matter what, but a swatch mailed to you guys would provide a side-by-side comparison.
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