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69 electrical hacks by PO, need advice
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Red Fau Veh
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Red Fau Veh wrote:
But why?


The later style current track diagrams greatly simplify trouble shooting once you learn to use them.
Please learn me how to use it then, I am not able to follow them. Why are there pics of fuse blocks below? It might be easy but not to me. Confused
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1973 Orange transporter stock type 4 with dual 40 Dellortos and Empi single quiet pack
1969 Adventurewagen blue whale Gene Berg 1776 built by Dave Kawell dual 36 DRLA's, Vintage Speed exhaust, Bosch 019 screamer
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

K, my problem is deciphering what is the difference between the PO hacks, and the non-existent 69 wiriing diagram for the early 69's.

in this pic is what i can see-i didnt include everything, just most of it to show how it matches the wiring diagram and the oddity of fuse 9 and 10:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and what it should look like, using the schematic from both the 69 and 70 diagram--just showing the 9 and 10 slots

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


basically, both diagrams show only one wire exiting from the bottom, either a 6 or a 4 (im not sure on mine) and three exiting from the top--a 2.5 and two .5's

mine has three exiting from the bottom, and two from the top (plus some Po weird wire), but one of the ones from the top loops around and connects to the bottom.

also, the black wire with the dots around it is broken, and is on the same jumper as the red wire and green PO wire

Does anyone have a 69 with the same setup to confirm whats legit?
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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Red Fau Veh
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is mine.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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1971 Deluxe Sunroof Bay 1905 stroker, dual idf40's, 74mm Scat forged crank, engle 110 cam. CB 044 heads, AutoCraft rockers, chromoly push rods
1973 Orange transporter stock type 4 with dual 40 Dellortos and Empi single quiet pack
1969 Adventurewagen blue whale Gene Berg 1776 built by Dave Kawell dual 36 DRLA's, Vintage Speed exhaust, Bosch 019 screamer
1961 Swivel Seat camper, L345 grey
Touch Nicks Thing wrote:
Swivel Seat panels are for people with no friends Crying or Very sad
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red Fau Veh wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
Red Fau Veh wrote:
But why?


The later style current track diagrams greatly simplify trouble shooting once you learn to use them.
Please learn me how to use it then, I am not able to follow them. Why are there pics of fuse blocks below? It might be easy but not to me. Confused


Here is a link with an explanation of how the DIN diagrams are set up.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/Un...l_2003.pdf

The pictures of the fuse block show exactly how the wiring for each fuse was originally laid out.
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

red,

i cant tell by your picture, but can you confirm if the #9 and ten fuse is the way mine is? with the one wire going from the top of 9 to the jumpers on 10, and having red wires on both sides of the block?

Also, why do you have so many different color fuses?

or if you have a picture from the back? (dont hack up anything trying to get it--maybe if you just can look and describe it? )
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP


Last edited by Yarkle on Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your PO has it wrong, that looped red wire renders the fuse useless.
Power for #9 and #10 comes from one of the #30 terminals on the headlight switch (heavy wire), #9 supplies the hazard lights and the dome lights, in your case the red wire would go to #30 on the hazard switch if you have a 9 terminal switch. Fuse #10 is a bonus accessory circuit for things like a cig lighter or clock.

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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

K, thats what i thought. IT looks like its an OG wire, but the routing made no sense at all to me.

So Im thinking I should pull those red wires off the "bottom" and then try and find the splices where the actual wires that belong there are. The only thing that should be on the bottom there is the thick red wire going from the light switch?

ive got the 4 pin relay

on the "top" end should be a red wire going to the flasher switch, and then two smaller reds going to somewhere else (not sure if i should use the 68 or 70 diagram for that, cuz they go to different places.)


im guessing the interior light switch (which is unhooked on mine--from 69, or the horn and the interior light 70?)
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The horn is powered by fuse #1.
Use the diagram with the same number of fuses in the box (10 in you case), that 70 diagram with the 12 fuse box will mess with your head. But even then aside from those 2 circuits being on the other end of the box they still supply the same things, the only difference is the dome lights are split onto 2 separate fuses, the hazard circuit still gets fed by #30 but it goes to the hazard switch instead of the relay.
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, that explains alot...one thing that messes me up is that "branch" symbol on the wiring diagram..im not 100% sure how to decipher that.

does the branch symbol mean one is on one fuse, and one is on the other fuse, but they are joined by that plate thing? I think thats what it means.

cuz some have a double tab on one fuse, but then they also have two tabs connected by two fuses.

so one of the small red wires is off the 10 fuse, and one is off the 9 fuse (both going to the interior lights?)
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The heavy black lines between the bottom of some fuses are the metal connections between fuses on the box, the branchlike symbols where 2,3 or even 4 wires of sometimes different color indicate all those wires connect to that fuse either using the double tab some have or a piggy back connector or sometimes even 2 wires crimped into one connector.

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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First: Busdaddy, thanks for your patience and answers!

2nd: that picture in your post didnt show up?--forbidden

3rd: Ok, so using the 68 diagram, fuse one should have:

on the top (cuz its got a double connector): two wires connected to each connector, with some combination of red/black, green/black, yellow /black, and grey between the two..

I think mine will be different due to the 4 pin relay, but just so im understanding it

on the bottom: two blacks on a double terminal?

Maybe the po just started swapping stuff on terminals too...ugh
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no difference whatsoever between 4 terminal flashers and 9 terminal flashers as far as the fusebox and the wire colors go, all the wires go to the relay with the 9 terminal system and most go to the hazard switch on ther 4 terminal system, same wires, same colors , same fuse locations. Two black wires on the bottom of #1, one from the ignition switch and one back to the coil, one wire on the bottom of #2 to the fuel gauge.
It's quite obvious your PO has been messing around, as I said earlier yank them all off and start from scratch using the diagram. Here's another try on the pic:

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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:03 pm    Post subject: 1969 wiring changes Reply with quote

TA DA!

Short version: here is what mid 69 bay wiring should look like.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Long version: Took me a long time to figure out this, with a lot of questions and a lot of google fu. One thing that really frustrated me was this question had been asked on several forums, and none of the original posters ever came back and said :"this is how i fixed it." Basically, most threads said-use the aug 67 diagram..or use the 70 diagram..others said..well, just kind of combine them.

With alot of help from Busdaddy, Peter from volksworks (UK) and Speedy Jim (listed alphabetically) the above diagram is what i came up with. I found this explanation of the problem on shoptalkforums:

"When VW abandoned the `67/`68-style hazard flasher system in mid`69 Bentley never published a proper diagram to reflect the change. Same goes for the change from three 2-prong brakelight switches to two 3-prongs. Follow the `70 diagram for these circuits on a late `69, but power them from the appropriate fuses rather than the ones shown for the 12-fuse panel. "

looking at the fuse listing schematic

On the 10-fuse panel, the first & 2nd fuses are Term 15 (ignition-switched) - brakelight switches, wiper switch, horn, and Term 15 power to the 4-way switch all need to come from these two fuses. The 9th & 10th fuses are Term 30 (unswitched power) - they feed Term 30 on the 4-way switch and the dome lamps, and possibly the radio or other unswitched accessory (clock, cigar lighter, etc.)

What puzzled me was that the colors on the two diagrams didnt match up. Busdaddy was right, in that the same wires power the same things, just in a different configuration. (primarily going from the relay to the switch instead)

Using the 70 diagram- i looked for a green wire to power terminal 15 on the flasher, but there was no green wire. but there was a black wire ..well, there was a green wire, but it was A po mod for an amp.

I couldnt tell what was PO wiring, and what was factory..apparently, in 69 they really liked black wire. cuz most of the mystery wires are all black. looking at the flasher switch, the wires are the colors on the 70 diagram..sort of..apparently, there are connectors buried deep in the wiring tornado where the wires change color.

Also, it appears what took 3 fuses in 70-3,4,5 is run by 1 and 2 in 69. likewise, what is run by 9 and 10 in 69, is run by 1 and 2 in 70.

But, after consulting with the aforementioned sages, Removing the PO's mess, tracing the wires, I sketched this up so the next mid-69 bay owner with PO hacks will have a better reference.

This is still academic, as i had to go on a work trip before I could finish the swaparound, but so far, so good.

if you look at my original sketch, it looks like the guy just moved stuff around willy nilly, like he had a blown fuse and was trying to bypass it or something.

anything i missed? messed up?
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP


Last edited by Yarkle on Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks good from here, the only thing I can add is your #7 wire goes to the coil, not from it, as in that's the wire that supplies the coil with power from the ignition switch.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Looks good from here, the only thing I can add is your #7 wire goes to the coil, not from it, as in that's the wire that supplies the coil with power from the ignition switch.


fixed!!!

That was one of the things it took me a bit to wrap my head around, what goes to and what goes from
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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furnlow
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 11:03 pm    Post subject: '69 bay, suspected '68 wiring... help please! Reply with quote

Hi all, great thread this, and although pack of incredibly insightful info, I'm positively petrified to attempt to fix my horn, main beam and interior lights, but I'm gonna give it a go!

Before i start, can someone help me decide which wiring diagrams to start with?

I have a 1969 bay window.
Chassis # 219 045 337 - indicates to use 1968-1970 diagrams

Delivered to Perth, Australia in March 1969 backs up it was definitely manufactured somewhere between August - December 1968.

Problem is I only have 10 fuse box, not 12.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Which diagram should I use?

[/url]
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

10 fuse box is correct for the 68 and 69, but since yours is australian., id suggest you start by checking it against this (non us versions)

http://www.vintagebus.com/wiring/Transporter_from_August_1967.jpg

http://www.vintagebus.com/wiring/Transporter_from_August_1967_aditional_items.jpg


these have got some funky things on them, like ambulance fans and "whoopie lights", but the wires you are looking for should match on them..should..

but i already see some PO shenanigans on there..like that blue splice connector and the duck tape

given that all of your fuses are different colors, you might want to start with just changing them out for new ones--sometimes they get corroded or loose and shut down the circuit when there are no other problems.

they should all be the white 8 amp--though ive seen some newer 8 amps are black
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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furnlow
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks heaps Yarkle, will start with your sugestion and work from there Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:26 am    Post subject: 1969 wiring Diagram changes Reply with quote

First of all, this thread is great. I totally got a clearer picture as to what the hell is going on with my wiring. The PO did some crazy hacks, but on top of that I was going crazy trying to figure out why my wiring diagram followed a 1969 on some things, like a 10am fuse box then didn't follow the diagram on other things, like a three prong master cylinder. Thanks to Yarkie I have a clearer picture. Also help from Busdaddy. I hope this helps me get my brake lights working. That is one that that has been holding me back from driving my bus. I also was unaware the Wolfsburg West sold fuse blocks for the 69. I will definitely be getting one of those soon. My mounting tabs are busted off and don't help how messy it looks under the dash. This is gonna help my bus be a lot cleaner after all the hacks the PO did and get my bus closer to original. Not that I don't have custom changes, but I at least want everything to work as close to stock as possible except for my upgrades.

Thanks everyone. Very Happy

Abel
1969 Westy.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:26 am    Post subject: one error found on the suggestion by Yarkie's previous post. Reply with quote

It seems there is one error that I picked up on. It's your number 5 wire, that you say goes to the wiper motor. I don't think this is correct. There are no wires that go from the wiper motor directly to the fuse box. The four wires all go to the wiper switch on both models (i believe). On the 70 there is the extra brown wire that is actually a ground wire and I believe it goes to a ground that is located on the actually body of the car. I will try to take a picture to show where. Remember I am describing my midyear 69 model. so it it may not be exactly the same as the 70.
Wink

abel
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