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Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Google Leadville, CO its 10000ft altitude so your 3% figure is 30% power loss. |
It isn't quite that much because its 3% of, say, 90HP, then 3% 0f 87.3HP and so on, until you get 66.23HP at 10,000 feet, 27.5% less than what VW says your van has at sea level.
A 2.5 Subaru will still make ~120HP at that elevation.
Of course if you're running the stock Digifant injection with no barometric pressure sensor to adjust the mixture and timing at altitude, your engine is putting out even less power. Then add in the emasculating effect of taller tires... 
One of the reasons I chose to stay with stock diameter tires (225/55-16) was to be able to climb the passes we're faced with in the West. The re-geared 5 speed helps, too.
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'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Howesight wrote: |
The bottom line: high elevation passes call for turbocharged engines. |
I concur. Completely agnostic of the engine choice, if I lived in CO there's not a doubt in my mind that I'd want some kind of turbocharger in order to make up for the lost oxygen content in the air. To do otherwise, is leaving power and efficiency on the table--makes no sense, especially since there are a number of solid options available.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| jerrydog411 wrote: |
| Jon_slider wrote: |
..... That van has 205x65x15 tires that are 3% oversize.
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Jon, DeadSet ... Incorrect info. These tires (Nokians, anyway) are 25.5" diameter vs. 25.6" for original, stock 185R14 tires ... actually 0.3% smaller; not 3% bigger. |
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Agilis
25.9" diameter, 802 rotations per mile
compare to stock 205x70x14 with 819 rotations per mile
802/819-1 =2%
thanks for checking my math, I was mistaken, not 3%, 2% oversize.. It does depend which of the stock tires you reference.. I use 819 rotations as stock, based on one of the 205x70x14 oem tires.
a list of tires VW used (rotations per mile not listed, I got the 819 rotation per mile info from Dereks spreadsheet)
http://www.roadhaus.com/tires/VW%20Vanagon%20Original%20Equipment%20Tires%201984%20-%201991.html
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My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco |
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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| Howesight wrote: |
The bottom line: high elevation passes call for turbocharged engines. |
I concur. |
I also believe that turbo helps at altitude, but it is not a cure all
A while back I was at 9000 feet in Mammoth, CA with my TDi Syncro.
Bear in mind that my turbo does not spool up until 1800rpm.
I was shocked to discover that I could barely make it accross the street safely in 1st gear, I had to use Granny to not block traffic to get moving quickly from a full stop.
I did feel the turbo helped at speed, above, 2400rpm, 55mph in 4th, but the motor still lagged, or lacked power, compared to how it pulls at sea level. So I dont think turbo makes up for altitude entirely.
Turbo is great, but proper gearing is still essential.
The OP has 10% oversize tires, plus altitude, plus his brain was working as a rev limiter 
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My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco |
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raoul mitgong
Samba Member
Joined: July 05, 2009
Posts: 1338
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:18 am Post subject: |
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OP, I think you asked the right questions. Beware of opinions from people living at sea level or flat states.
I drive those roads often. I've driven them for 10 years in a turbo Subaru WRX all stock. I've also driven that same WRX in Indiana and WV and I had much more power at lower elevation (uncalibrated seat of pants). I do miss that WRX, but not enough to trade my Syncro.
I've driven those roads in an 84 Full Westy with a 2.1 waterboxer and an 86 Syncro all stock. Both tires as close to stock diameter as I could manage.
I too am looking to upgrade the power on both my vanagons. I am in the 30's mph right before Eisenhower Tunnel westbound. Too slow to be safe in my opinion. If I lived in Florida or other flat low state, I don't think I'd be concerned at all about my stock engine. CO and mountain states are different. I'll be watching this thread.
A turbo in a Syncro would not be for me. I've temporarily settled on an EJ25 for my Syncro. Maybe the same for the Westy, but like the Bostig and 10cent options there too. I don't want to have to spool up and wear the clutch to get my van over rocks while wheeling.
-d
_________________
84 Westy with a 2.1 (Groover)
86 Tintop Syncro (Crow)
86 Tintop Syncro to Westy project (Tom Servo)
91 Westy (Only the top 12 inches of this van (a burn victim)) |
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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| raoul mitgong wrote: |
| I don't want to have to spool up and wear the clutch to get my van over rocks while wheeling. |
I do not rely on my turbo to spool up when crawling. That is why I changed my ring and pinion to a 5.43, so my granny would crawl normally aspirated.
I agree running a 29" tire with 4.86 Ring and pinion and a 1.8T will require slipping the clutch and going faster than stock crawl speeds.
Its all about the final gearing.. tire size, ring and pinion size.. and yes, altitude robs a LOT of power.
in any case, I respect you not wanting a turbo motor, Derek Drew feels the same way. He went with a Subaru H6 3.0, a motor that has not been mentioned yet..
Since Im in California, only the Subie 2.2 or Audi 1.8t are smog viable options (plus a TDi, but that a whole nother can of gearing)
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My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco |
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Farfrumwork
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2008
Posts: 692
Location: Mile High
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Syncro Westy Weekender.
Fully loaded (wife, 2 kids, camp gear, water, etc...)
All passes you mentioned are 50-55mph in 3rd gear with almost all of the throttle to spare. Could go as fast as I would like to rev really, but hold it around ~4k. Not quite enough to hold 4th for the whole pass so I keep it in 3rd and roll (don't want to shift back and forth)
EJ25 (DOHC run off of my EJ22 ECU, <5k mi on it so it's not quite broken in)
27" general grabbers
decoupler
I used to have a EJ22 and it was good, but not great at tugging the beast around the mountains. A $0.10 2.2 would be just as good if not better (being new and all)
Agree that turbos rock altitude, but I don't think that I would like a turbo plant in my syncro (my opinion). Besides I have a 300+hp sedan with AWD and a turbo to go fast if'n I choose too 
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sold  -> '85 Wolfsburg Syncro / 'Built' DOHC EJ25 (a great machine!)
'07 Legacy spec.B, road tuned stgII
'17 4x4 Sprinter, stone grey, SMB pop-top, on 33"s
"Blood stains, speed kills - Fast cars, cheap thrills - Rich girls, fine wine - I've lost my sense, I've lost control, I've lost my mind" |
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ranchero
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2006
Posts: 359
Location: Salida, CO
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not necessarily suggesting that a conversion is the way to go - adjusting expectations and saving $5-$7k may be a better option.
But, I have an EJ25 Subaru in my Syncro Westy. I can do the speed limit or better, fully loaded, on any of the passes you mention. Third gear and lots of RPMs.
Steve
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'90 Westy Syncro EJ25 (money pit #1)
'96 FZJ80 (cheap by comparison^^)
'13 Golf R. Daily driver. |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jon_slider wrote: |
| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| Howesight wrote: |
The bottom line: high elevation passes call for turbocharged engines. |
I concur. |
I also believe that turbo helps at altitude, but it is not a cure all
A while back I was at 9000 feet in Mammoth, CA with my TDi Syncro.
Bear in mind that my turbo does not spool up until 1800rpm.
I was shocked to discover that I could barely make it accross the street safely in 1st gear, I had to use Granny to not block traffic to get moving quickly from a full stop.
I did feel the turbo helped at speed, above, 2400rpm, 55mph in 4th, but the motor still lagged, or lacked power, compared to how it pulls at sea level. So I dont think turbo makes up for altitude entirely.
Turbo is great, but proper gearing is still essential.
The OP has 10% oversize tires, plus altitude, plus his brain was working as a rev limiter |
Given some of the issues you've had with that engine, I'm still not convinced that it's running at peak condition. My IDI turbo diesel pulls like a tractor, from about 1100rpm on, even at elevations around 6k to 8k--haven't taken it above that
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| My IDI turbo diesel pulls like a tractor, from about 1100rpm on, even at elevations around 6k to 8k |
what is your tire size, R&P, and 4th gear?
When Betty had 27.8" tires (215x75x15), 4.86 R&P, and .7 4th. She could accelerate past 70mph going UP the Grapevine Highway in 4th gear. Even with retarded timing and a misballanced flywheel.
Betty now runs 30.5" tires (245x75x16) with a 5.43 R&P and a .7 4th
With the bigger tire she can still do 70mph up the grapevine in 4th, but she lost some acceleration due to the greater mass of the tire, which is also further away from the wheel hub.
the 30.5" tire has a radius that is 10% greater, and weighs 11 pounds more, 33% more mass, than the 27.8" tire.
If there is one single thing that will start people down the slippery slope of wanting a motor upgrade and regearing, it is the innocently naive desire to increase ground clearance by increasing tire size on a stock motor.
the OP is exactly in that position. He has a Syncro, and runs 10% oversize tires, and it is a serious handicap to his stock motor. Even at sea level, moreso at altitude, and with a 3500rpm self imposed rev limit.
I think you will find that people who run 10% oversize tires, almost universally follow that with a motor upgrade.
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My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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I was referring to the fact that you mentioned it takes your turbo so long to spool up, and that you were having power issues from idle. Neither of those sound right for a correctly dialed smallish displacement turbodiesel.
The vehicle I was referring to has a 2.65 R&P with 205/55/16 tires, but none of that is relevant to how the engine operates at any elevation.
_________________
Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?
Last edited by Zeitgeist 13 on Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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zeohsix
Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2012
Posts: 501
Location: United States
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| raoul mitgong wrote: |
OP, I think you asked the right questions. Beware of opinions from people living at sea level or flat states.
I drive those roads often. I've driven them for 10 years in a turbo Subaru WRX all stock. I've also driven that same WRX in Indiana and WV and I had much more power at lower elevation (uncalibrated seat of pants). I do miss that WRX, but not enough to trade my Syncro.
I've driven those roads in an 84 Full Westy with a 2.1 waterboxer and an 86 Syncro all stock. Both tires as close to stock diameter as I could manage.
I too am looking to upgrade the power on both my vanagons. I am in the 30's mph right before Eisenhower Tunnel westbound. Too slow to be safe in my opinion. If I lived in Florida or other flat low state, I don't think I'd be concerned at all about my stock engine. CO and mountain states are different. I'll be watching this thread.
A turbo in a Syncro would not be for me. I've temporarily settled on an EJ25 for my Syncro. Maybe the same for the Westy, but like the Bostig and 10cent options there too. I don't want to have to spool up and wear the clutch to get my van over rocks while wheeling.
-d |
I thought the same thoughts until my buddy who builds motors for 034 Motorsport pulled up some dyno sheets on a 1.8T build up with a stock AWP baseline on them. I was shocked at the amount of low end torque a 1.8T makes. The K03 turbo of the 1.8T motors spools quickly and early. My EJ22 Syncro was a much better motor than a WBX but even the 2.5 with a Frankensubie build will be left far in the wake of a 1.8T at altitude.
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I'm Cheap! I'll build that Syncro Westy myself and save money but, my labor is "FREE" especially if I ever go to sell it! One thing is I will know the quality of the parts and labor that went into the build and rest better when I'm actually driving said Westy down the road! |
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raoul mitgong
Samba Member
Joined: July 05, 2009
Posts: 1338
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I thought the same thoughts until my buddy who builds motors for 034 Motorsport pulled up some dyno sheets on a 1.8T build up with a stock AWP baseline on them. I was shocked at the amount of low end torque a 1.8T makes. The K03 turbo of the 1.8T motors spools quickly and early. My EJ22 Syncro was a much better motor than a WBX but even the 2.5 with a Frankensubie build will be left far in the wake of a 1.8T at altitude. |
Yeah, my 2002 wrx was a choked 2.0 until about 3k when it REALLY came alive. No experience with the 1.8t. I have driven a few Subarus with 2.5s and like them. Wife owns one. Never driven a converted Vanagon. Loved the WRX for what it was made to do but it has probably biased me against a turbo in my van. Noticed I said "temporarily" settled on the EJ25!
-d
_________________
84 Westy with a 2.1 (Groover)
86 Tintop Syncro (Crow)
86 Tintop Syncro to Westy project (Tom Servo)
91 Westy (Only the top 12 inches of this van (a burn victim)) |
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skier
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2012
Posts: 15
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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My 91 2wd Westy has stock gearing, 205/65/15 WRC tires and a 2.5 Subie. My house is at 9318' in Silverton, my condo is at 6960' in Durango. I go back and forth regularly loaded with ski and/or climbing gear over passes of 10,640 and 10,820. The straighter sections are taken at about 65 in 4th, tighter areas around 45-55 in third.
My loads might be a little lighter than yours, but the roads are steeper here with very few passing lanes.
Hope this helps
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91 Westy/2.5 L Suby |
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