Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Burned up an engine - FI, upgrades?
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Type 3 Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
werker
Redwood Wrencher


Joined: March 08, 2004
Posts: 308
Location: Separating the drum from the axle...
werker is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:27 am    Post subject: Burned up an engine - FI, upgrades? Reply with quote

It is amazing the amount of work these engines can perform. While running home against a headwind, at 70mph, a full load and in 110' heat I burned up my motor. I thought I may have been pushing the engine too hard, but it turns out it would have been fine if my little mouse friends didn't set up shop on top of the 1-2 bank. (I've been flogging this engine for about 3 years now and have no idea when this happened. This was on the way home from a 450 mile trip!)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So, to keep the 72FI intact I was thinking about doing a little upgrade while I was replacing the P&C's. I haven't taken the heads off yet, but I anticipate having to send them to RIMCO to get refurbished. What is the consensus of running the slip/machine in 88mm P&C kit with the FI?

From time to time, the stock engine comes off as underpowered and I was hoping to do some upgrades. Any other ideas of what I can do with the stock FI? Besides having the heads opened up for 88's and perhaps a polish, I was thinking of the OTT exhaust from Aircooled.net. What else should I be looking at?

Any issues with running slightly larger P&C's with the FI?
_________________
72 Squareback
9th air-cooled
Proud Member #8, SBS (Stock Bus Society)
---------------------------------------
Gremlin Killer
Robert Bills wrote:
The guys on this forum can talk you through any issues you may have. Don't give up on the fuel injection - your Type 3 will thank you.


Last edited by werker on Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tram Premium Member
Samba Socialist


Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 21965
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
Tram is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to keep the cam stock. Anything bigger than 1641cc will require the "green/ blue" Type 4 /914/ Mercedes/ Volvo D-jet injectors for more fuel flow.
_________________
May 4, 1970- 50 years- NEVER FORGET!! Sad

vwfye wrote:
Oh the joy of custom things...



RIPRW

"I'm very fond of long walks, especially when taken by those who annoy me."- Fred Allen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vlad01
Samba Member


Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
vlad01 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so many engines posted with rodent nests Shocked yet none with mud wasp nests?

I thought mud wasp would be in far greater numbers?
_________________
The best of VW engine development!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BROWqjuTM0g

71 Aussie notchback, the money pit
92 VP vacationer, old faithful never die
95 VR executive, Restored beyond factory
92 VP S Pack, bought it new old
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
werker
Redwood Wrencher


Joined: March 08, 2004
Posts: 308
Location: Separating the drum from the axle...
werker is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds good. Tram do you mean to say that if I go 87mm cylinders (1641) then ok with stock injectors but with 88mm cylinders (1679) I'll need the green/blue injectors?

If my heads are toast and I need to replace them, are any aftermarket high flow heads OK for stock FI? Or do I need to keep the heads stock as well? Like aircooled tech's heads, MOFOCO's heads, etc...
_________________
72 Squareback
9th air-cooled
Proud Member #8, SBS (Stock Bus Society)
---------------------------------------
Gremlin Killer
Robert Bills wrote:
The guys on this forum can talk you through any issues you may have. Don't give up on the fuel injection - your Type 3 will thank you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 19648
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

werker wrote:
Sounds good. Tram do you mean to say that if I go 87mm cylinders (1641) then ok with stock injectors but with 88mm cylinders (1679) I'll need the green/blue injectors?

If my heads are toast and I need to replace them, are any aftermarket high flow heads OK for stock FI? Or do I need to keep the heads stock as well? Like aircooled tech's heads, MOFOCO's heads, etc...


I'm not Tram, but keeping it 1641 or smaller, is always a plus. At this point you could refresh the entire "top end" rebuild for a little cash, and have a reliable daily driver.
It really dependes on what you want to use the vehicle for... Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
werker
Redwood Wrencher


Joined: March 08, 2004
Posts: 308
Location: Separating the drum from the axle...
werker is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bob,
Why do you say it's a plus? Do mean that keeping it as close to stock displacement is best for the FI? I'm going to refresh the top end and have some cash but don't want to venture outside of what the stock FI can handle. Thus I want to open the cylinders up a bit and improve my heads (stock or aftermarket) without having to totally re-do my fuel delivery system.

Thus if 1641 is the agreed upon limit to stock injectors, that is something I need to think about. If I can get away with 1679 with stock injectors and 2-5 mor psi of fuel pressure, then good.

Also, as the FI works off the vacuum signature and I need to keep the stock cam, I'm wondering what ported heads would do to the FI? Upgrading the exhaust is OK, but what about upgrading the heads? That is my key question....
_________________
72 Squareback
9th air-cooled
Proud Member #8, SBS (Stock Bus Society)
---------------------------------------
Gremlin Killer
Robert Bills wrote:
The guys on this forum can talk you through any issues you may have. Don't give up on the fuel injection - your Type 3 will thank you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tram Premium Member
Samba Socialist


Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 21965
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
Tram is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

werker wrote:
Hi Bob,
Why do you say it's a plus? Do mean that keeping it as close to stock displacement is best for the FI? I'm going to refresh the top end and have some cash but don't want to venture outside of what the stock FI can handle. Thus I want to open the cylinders up a bit and improve my heads (stock or aftermarket) without having to totally re-do my fuel delivery system.

Thus if 1641 is the agreed upon limit to stock injectors, that is something I need to think about. If I can get away with 1679 with stock injectors and 2-5 mor psi of fuel pressure, then good.

Also, as the FI works off the vacuum signature and I need to keep the stock cam, I'm wondering what ported heads would do to the FI? Upgrading the exhaust is OK, but what about upgrading the heads? That is my key question....


More pressure is a really bad bandaid, because pressure too high overrides injection function. Increasing pressure doesn't increase volume.
_________________
May 4, 1970- 50 years- NEVER FORGET!! Sad

vwfye wrote:
Oh the joy of custom things...



RIPRW

"I'm very fond of long walks, especially when taken by those who annoy me."- Fred Allen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vlad01
Samba Member


Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
vlad01 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
werker wrote:
Hi Bob,
Why do you say it's a plus? Do mean that keeping it as close to stock displacement is best for the FI? I'm going to refresh the top end and have some cash but don't want to venture outside of what the stock FI can handle. Thus I want to open the cylinders up a bit and improve my heads (stock or aftermarket) without having to totally re-do my fuel delivery system.

Thus if 1641 is the agreed upon limit to stock injectors, that is something I need to think about. If I can get away with 1679 with stock injectors and 2-5 mor psi of fuel pressure, then good.

Also, as the FI works off the vacuum signature and I need to keep the stock cam, I'm wondering what ported heads would do to the FI? Upgrading the exhaust is OK, but what about upgrading the heads? That is my key question....


More pressure is a really bad bandaid, because pressure too high overrides injection function. Increasing pressure doesn't increase volume.


That entirely depends on the injectors, not true for majority of them made in the last 30 year, but true for these old clunker of design 1 bosch injectors.
_________________
The best of VW engine development!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BROWqjuTM0g

71 Aussie notchback, the money pit
92 VP vacationer, old faithful never die
95 VR executive, Restored beyond factory
92 VP S Pack, bought it new old
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
werker
Redwood Wrencher


Joined: March 08, 2004
Posts: 308
Location: Separating the drum from the axle...
werker is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I've heard from RIMCO that my heads are cracked from the overheating. What good options are there for new-rebuilt T3 FI heads? What are the differences between our heads and the late model beetle FI heads? I know our FI is finicky so I don't want to get the wrong ones.

I'm in SoCal for the day and stopped by Pierside Parts and they offer Kuhltek DP FI heads for $225. That head has the ridge along the inside of the chamber. Should the heads I get have the ridge or not?

Aircooled.net says their Chinese FI heads are good (and I'll trust John) but are those beetle or T3 heads? I don't want to mess this up.... so any advice on what I should be buying to get back on the road?
_________________
72 Squareback
9th air-cooled
Proud Member #8, SBS (Stock Bus Society)
---------------------------------------
Gremlin Killer
Robert Bills wrote:
The guys on this forum can talk you through any issues you may have. Don't give up on the fuel injection - your Type 3 will thank you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
KTPhil Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 27949
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
KTPhil is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vlad01 wrote:
Tram wrote:
werker wrote:
Hi Bob,
Why do you say it's a plus? Do mean that keeping it as close to stock displacement is best for the FI? I'm going to refresh the top end and have some cash but don't want to venture outside of what the stock FI can handle. Thus I want to open the cylinders up a bit and improve my heads (stock or aftermarket) without having to totally re-do my fuel delivery system.

Thus if 1641 is the agreed upon limit to stock injectors, that is something I need to think about. If I can get away with 1679 with stock injectors and 2-5 mor psi of fuel pressure, then good.

Also, as the FI works off the vacuum signature and I need to keep the stock cam, I'm wondering what ported heads would do to the FI? Upgrading the exhaust is OK, but what about upgrading the heads? That is my key question....


More pressure is a really bad bandaid, because pressure too high overrides injection function. Increasing pressure doesn't increase volume.


That entirely depends on the injectors, not true for majority of them made in the last 30 year, but true for these old clunker of design 1 bosch injectors.


The thread below has a claim that A/F ratio changes 2.8% for each 0.1 psi of pressure change. That implies the injector output is quite pressure sensitive.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21015&start=4222

As I posted, this would imply (assuming it's linear, which is doubtless an oversimplification) that the "acceptable" 2 psi spec range (28-30 psi) would allow for an almost 50% change in flow.

Something's not right here...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
VWCOOL
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
VWCOOL is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
werker wrote:
Hi Bob,
Why do you say it's a plus? Do mean that keeping it as close to stock displacement is best for the FI? I'm going to refresh the top end and have some cash but don't want to venture outside of what the stock FI can handle. Thus I want to open the cylinders up a bit and improve my heads (stock or aftermarket) without having to totally re-do my fuel delivery system.

Thus if 1641 is the agreed upon limit to stock injectors, that is something I need to think about. If I can get away with 1679 with stock injectors and 2-5 mor psi of fuel pressure, then good.

Also, as the FI works off the vacuum signature and I need to keep the stock cam, I'm wondering what ported heads would do to the FI? Upgrading the exhaust is OK, but what about upgrading the heads? That is my key question....


More pressure is a really bad bandaid, because pressure too high overrides injection function. Increasing pressure doesn't increase volume.


Tell us more about this...
How does increasing fuel pressure NOT lead to an increase in fuel flow while the injector is open?
How/why does the Type 3 injector design - old as it is - not respond to this? Does it impede the ability of the injector to open?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
KTPhil Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 27949
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
KTPhil is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VWCOOL wrote:

Tell us more about this...
How does increasing fuel pressure NOT lead to an increase in fuel flow while the injector is open?
How/why does the Type 3 injector design - old as it is - not respond to this? Does it impede the ability of the injector to open?


One answer is that there is a narrow pressure range in which the output can be varied with pressure, but outside this range, things go haywire.

At low pressure, the atomization is so poor that there is unburned fuel in the exhaust, so it smells rich but is actually fuel starved. At high pressure, I'm not sure the pintles can operate correctly and so the flow changes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
VWCOOL
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
VWCOOL is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
VWCOOL wrote:

Tell us more about this...
How does increasing fuel pressure NOT lead to an increase in fuel flow while the injector is open?
How/why does the Type 3 injector design - old as it is - not respond to this? Does it impede the ability of the injector to open?


One answer is that there is a narrow pressure range in which the output can be varied with pressure, but outside this range, things go haywire.

At low pressure, the atomization is so poor that there is unburned fuel in the exhaust, so it smells rich but is actually fuel starved. At high pressure, I'm not sure the pintles can operate correctly and so the flow changes.


yes, good theory, generally true of any/all EFI engine/injector operation but why is the Type 3 injector design more susceptible? I was of the opinion the Beetle/Bus used the same injector - at 10psi more pressure
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 19648
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VWCOOL wrote:
KTPhil wrote:
VWCOOL wrote:

Tell us more about this...
How does increasing fuel pressure NOT lead to an increase in fuel flow while the injector is open?
How/why does the Type 3 injector design - old as it is - not respond to this? Does it impede the ability of the injector to open?


One answer is that there is a narrow pressure range in which the output can be varied with pressure, but outside this range, things go haywire.

At low pressure, the atomization is so poor that there is unburned fuel in the exhaust, so it smells rich but is actually fuel starved. At high pressure, I'm not sure the pintles can operate correctly and so the flow changes.


yes, good theory, generally true of any/all EFI engine/injector operation but why is the Type 3 injector design more susceptible? I was of the opinion the Beetle/Bus used the same injector - at 10psi more pressure


No, they're not the same injector. Buses and bugs used L-jet injectors, while type 3s used their own injector. Infact, an upgraded type 3 injector (one that flows more like Tram mentioned above) was used on 914 Porsches, and some Volvos. The T-3 injector was never used on any other VW (ask Ray Greenwood). Shocked

To quote Tram;
You need to keep the cam stock. Anything bigger than 1641cc will require the "green/ blue" Type 4 /914/ Mercedes/ Volvo D-jet injectors for more fuel flow.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
werker
Redwood Wrencher


Joined: March 08, 2004
Posts: 308
Location: Separating the drum from the axle...
werker is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good discussion on injectors, but any input on heads?
Thanks fellas!
_________________
72 Squareback
9th air-cooled
Proud Member #8, SBS (Stock Bus Society)
---------------------------------------
Gremlin Killer
Robert Bills wrote:
The guys on this forum can talk you through any issues you may have. Don't give up on the fuel injection - your Type 3 will thank you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
rosevillain
Samba Member


Joined: December 28, 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: roseville, ca
rosevillain is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any stock valve sized head should do. Try to find one that has at least the boss for the temp sensor, drilled and tapped would be better.

Heads with the step.....

The step in the heads is considered when calculating compression ratio. The step should effectively become part of the deck height, not part of the combustion chamber. If you run a .050" step and a .055" deck height, your deck height becomes .105". By most engine builders standards, that is too high. I have read that .030"-.060" is a target range. A tighter deck (quench), with a combustion chamber designed for the desired compression ratio theoretically yields a more efficient burn.

However, to some, this doesn't even matter, and the benefits of tight deck are just a myth.

A head without the step is easier to set-up, if it is important to you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 19648
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rosevillain wrote:
Any stock valve sized head should do. Try to find one that has at least the boss for the temp sensor, drilled and tapped would be better.

Heads with the step.....

The step in the heads is considered when calculating compression ratio. The step should effectively become part of the deck height, not part of the combustion chamber. If you run a .050" step and a .055" deck height, your deck height becomes .105". By most engine builders standards, that is too high. I have read that .030"-.060" is a target range. A tighter deck (quench), with a combustion chamber designed for the desired compression ratio theoretically yields a more efficient burn.

However, to some, this doesn't even matter, and the benefits of tight deck are just a myth.

A head without the step is easier to set-up, if it is important to you.


Or just have the step machined out. Then you have a "correct" type 3 head. Wink

Type 3s never had the step. They were however a higher compression engine, versus a bug. Cool
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
VWCOOL
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
VWCOOL is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Bobnotch and good luck Werker!

Last edited by VWCOOL on Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
werker
Redwood Wrencher


Joined: March 08, 2004
Posts: 308
Location: Separating the drum from the axle...
werker is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info gentlemen! So here is what I can find so far:

There is the tradeoff between the step in the chamber or the FI bosses being present and tapped.


1) This first option is from aircooled.net has the step in the chamber, 35x32mm valves and the FI boss threaded and are $179.95 each.
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Chinese-Fuel-Injection-Dual-Port-Cylinder-Head-p/043-101-355ck.htm

2) The same (or very similar) option from Pierside Parts in Huntington Beach has the same features and the same part number 043-101-355CK, is also from China and but comes out of a Kuhltek box. No link $225. Is this the same head?

3) Next up is another option from Aircooled.net. This is a 35x32 DP head without the step, but doesn't have the boss for the heat temp sensor.
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Dual-Port-Cylinder-Head-35-x-32mm-Valves-PAIR-p/500-400.htm
$399 a pair. Is there a way to install a sensor on a head without the boss or the threaded bit?



4) Another option from Aircooled.net is the L3 heads. These are also 35x32, no step but appear to have the FI boss in the head. $499 pair

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/ACN-Stocker-Plus-Dual-Port-Cylinder-Heads-35-X-32-p/l3-heads-pair.htm

Since these are higher flowing, would that mess up the stock FI or are these options for T3 FI?

Are there any other options that I may be missing? Is there a direct replacement that I am unaware of or do us FI T3 guys have to make sacrifices or modifications for our heads?
_________________
72 Squareback
9th air-cooled
Proud Member #8, SBS (Stock Bus Society)
---------------------------------------
Gremlin Killer
Robert Bills wrote:
The guys on this forum can talk you through any issues you may have. Don't give up on the fuel injection - your Type 3 will thank you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
catbox
Samba Member


Joined: May 16, 2007
Posts: 797
Location: Portland, Oregon
catbox is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

werker wrote:
1) This first option is from aircooled.net has the step in the chamber, 35x32mm valves and the FI boss threaded and are $179.95 each.
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Chinese-Fuel-Injection-Dual-Port-Cylinder-Head-p/043-101-355ck.htm


This one and then have a local competent shop remove the step.
The shop I use costs $15 per hole for that job.

Oh and shoot for a deck height of 0.050"
NO less that 0.040" and no more than 0.070" will do however.
This should be easy to deal with once the step is gone.
Very Happy
_________________
"...these cars were preferred by the racers because the strut front suspension results in far superior handling than the regular torsion bar front end..." - Keith Seume.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Type 3 All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB